Tom Friedman

Great to be with you, Ezra.

Great to be with you, Ezra.

Why? Well, basically, all the American business executives in China left China during COVID, virtually all of them. And then after COVID, we began this process of decoupling. So you basically had six years with very, very little American presence there. When I was in China last year, I felt like I was the only American in China. You just didn't see any other Americans.

Why? Well, basically, all the American business executives in China left China during COVID, virtually all of them. And then after COVID, we began this process of decoupling. So you basically had six years with very, very little American presence there. When I was in China last year, I felt like I was the only American in China. You just didn't see any other Americans.

Not tourists, not business people, not nobody. I wrote then that it was like America and China were two elephants looking at each other through a straw. Having just been there two weeks ago, I would say now they're like two elephants looking at each other through a needle. The aperture has just gotten tiny.

Not tourists, not business people, not nobody. I wrote then that it was like America and China were two elephants looking at each other through a straw. Having just been there two weeks ago, I would say now they're like two elephants looking at each other through a needle. The aperture has just gotten tiny.

Yeah, I mean, basically over starting with Trump one and then into the Biden administration and now Trump two kind of became against the law in Washington, D.C. to say anything positive about China. And because of that, there was an aversion to going to China. There was an aversion in American industry began to develop of hiring Chinese.

Yeah, I mean, basically over starting with Trump one and then into the Biden administration and now Trump two kind of became against the law in Washington, D.C. to say anything positive about China. And because of that, there was an aversion to going to China. There was an aversion in American industry began to develop of hiring Chinese.

There was an aversion of American college campuses to sending students to school in China. And so you've got this giant asymmetry where China has today 260, 270,000 students studying in America. And we have, I don't know, a few thousand studying there. Right. And the backstory to this is not all an American failure at all.

There was an aversion of American college campuses to sending students to school in China. And so you've got this giant asymmetry where China has today 260, 270,000 students studying in America. And we have, I don't know, a few thousand studying there. Right. And the backstory to this is not all an American failure at all.

It has to do with also what happened in China beginning with the rise of President Xi Jinping between 2012, 2013, and then making himself, in effect, president for life. China went in reverse. It made a U-turn.

It has to do with also what happened in China beginning with the rise of President Xi Jinping between 2012, 2013, and then making himself, in effect, president for life. China went in reverse. It made a U-turn.

The China that we thought was, you know, more or less two steps forward, one step back, but on a trajectory for more openness at home and more integration with the world, that really stopped under Xi Jinping. And it was combined.

The China that we thought was, you know, more or less two steps forward, one step back, but on a trajectory for more openness at home and more integration with the world, that really stopped under Xi Jinping. And it was combined.

with a program Xi launched, which was to basically make sure that China dominated all the 21st century industries, from aerospace to new materials to autonomous vehicles to robots. And that changed the whole chemistry in the U.S.-China relationship. But central to that, Ezra, was that the ballast in this relationship was always the American business community.

with a program Xi launched, which was to basically make sure that China dominated all the 21st century industries, from aerospace to new materials to autonomous vehicles to robots. And that changed the whole chemistry in the U.S.-China relationship. But central to that, Ezra, was that the ballast in this relationship was always the American business community.

So they were the ones who, for many years, beginning in the late 70s, were making money in China. And even whenever the relationship got rocky, and even when we perceived China was not living up to trade obligations under WTO, American business would basically lobby and say, look, be cool. It's okay. We're still making money here. And what happened, this combination basically of

So they were the ones who, for many years, beginning in the late 70s, were making money in China. And even whenever the relationship got rocky, and even when we perceived China was not living up to trade obligations under WTO, American business would basically lobby and say, look, be cool. It's okay. We're still making money here. And what happened, this combination basically of

Xi taking a U-turn, fewer and fewer American businesses feeling they were getting the benefits out of China that they wanted and were having to transfer too much technology. And then China rising on its own with its own technological homegrown tech prowess. Those three things really kind of blew up the relationship.

Xi taking a U-turn, fewer and fewer American businesses feeling they were getting the benefits out of China that they wanted and were having to transfer too much technology. And then China rising on its own with its own technological homegrown tech prowess. Those three things really kind of blew up the relationship.