Tom Holland

He has some interesting fashion materials, doesn't he?

You're an intermediary between the dimensions of the earthly and the supernatural, Dominic.

No, never.

Pretend it to be.

I think there's a parasitic ant that will invade a rival ant colony.

and will take captive the head of the ants yeah um and either kill it or whatever yeah and then just take over the whole ant heap lock stock and barrel so there's a maybe a kind of parallel between the spanish and parasitic ants that's a very compelling natural history parallel well done i enjoyed that it was it was worth the five minute break in recording to google that yeah but i knew what to google right you did you deserve all the credit

And it's the kind of thing that goes on in the rainforests of South America.

But what do you think they find more disorientating?

The fact that Europeans have turned up with beards and stuff?

Or the fact that they have dared to seize the emperor and keep him as a hostage.

Because in a sense, that must be the thing that's really destabilizing because there's nothing in their history or their ideology or their experience that would enable them

to know what to do in such a scenario.

So that's a great example of how Atahualpa, even as a captive, is still able effectively to rule the empire because all these messengers are going out, taking his commands.

But I think also in a civil war, perhaps you hate the people you're fighting much more than you do foreign intruders.

But also, isn't Atahualpa has started to fathom Spaniards religious motivation.

Yeah.

And he kind of fires them up for sacking these temples by saying that the gods worship there are demons.

So that's another way in which he can get his vengeance on kind of priesthoods that he feel are against his rule.

There's a slight kind of Owlman quality to it as well, isn't there?

So the Owlman is the figure in the Aztec story where you unleash the Owlman and the world will end, but at least you'll destroy your enemies.