Tony Blair

And I think it's in any event, it's an inevitable thing.

And, you know, I think it's really important always to give this message to China, for example, that

China, as of right, is one of the big powers in the world, and as of right, should have a huge influence.

I don't believe in trying to constrain or contain China, but we do have to accept that the Chinese system, as it presently is, is run on different lines to our own.

is overtly in some degree hostile, which is why it's important for us to retain military and technological superiority, even though I believe passionately that it's important that we leave space for cooperation and engagement with China.

Now, how much could we have foreseen of all of this back in those days?

I'm not sure, but I think the world...

Sometimes one of the problems of the West is that we always see it through our own lens, and we always think, well, we could have done something different to change the world, but

But actually the rest of the world operates on its own principles as well.

So sometimes the change happens not because we didn't do something, but because the rest of the world did.

Sure.

You see, Joachim, one of the things you must never, ever do in politics is say who's your favorite leader, who's done well, because you will make one friend and many, many enemies.

So I'm just going to answer it in this way, that if you look at the countries that

that have succeeded today, if you look, for example, as any country that was third world become first world, was second world become first world, there are certain things that stand out and are clear.

Number one, they have stable macroeconomic policy.

Number two, they allow business and enterprise to flourish.

Number three, they have the rule of law.

And number four, they educate their people well.

And wherever you look around the world and you see those things in place, you will find success.

And whenever you find their absence, you will find either the fact or the possibility of failure.