Vesta

It's very similar. It's actually almost a mirror, because obviously when you start off trying, these are the things that you do not think about. These are the things that no one talks to you about, because everybody talks about the happiness and the joy you feel when you first find out you're pregnant, the symptoms that come with it and everything else. Thinking back, our journey started in 2010, really. And I must say, I've had miscarriages in all stages. It's been a challenge. When it first happened, it was like,

Me löysimme, että olemme syntyneitä, olemme järjestäneet, menimme ensimmäiseen tappiin ja sitten ei ollut mitään. En tiedä terminologiaa, en ole koskaan nähnyt tappia ennen, joten minulle kaikki oli erittäin uusia.

I wasn't sure how to react and everything that was told to me didn't make any sense. It was heartbreaking, but I still had that hope that actually, as I was told, it happens a lot. It takes a few times to get it right. I said, okay, fine, fair enough. But I wasn't able to open up to anybody because no one around me was going through it. No one around me had ever shared an experience like that before. So it was just me and Leslie.

And, you know, I think we took solace in each other in knowing that, okay, this might not be it, but next time it will happen. However, you know, it took us a long time to actually get pregnant and be pregnant for a longer period within the term. So I think emotionally it was really tough. I was the one I was going through it physically and I was dealing with it emotionally, but Leslie was supporting me.

Ja tulevaisuudet, ne tulevat paljon ongelmista, frustraatiota ja ajattelua, joten en pysty koskaan vain rauhoittumaan ja nukkumaan. Joten muutat paljon. Kyllä, kyllä, kyllä. Mielestäni se on se, mitä löysin. Muistan, kun menimme läpi sen pahimman. Sanoin hänelle, että kuule, Leslie, tiedän, että olemme rakastuneet, koska olemme rakastuneet toisiamme, meillä on paljon yhteisiä asioita ja kaikkea, mutta...

If you find that as we're trying and it's not working, we're never going to have children together, this is the time. This is the reason for you to leave if you have to. And I wouldn't hold it against you. And I said it and he looked at me and he's like, well, me and you are together because we know we're going to have children. We're together because we love each other. He said, if further down the line we realize we can't have children, then we just have to figure out what life looks like without them.

I think that's when after we realized that, okay, actually, we're happy as we are, but obviously in the future, if for whatever reason we are unable to have children. And mind you, there was a lot of guilt on me. I felt very pressured. I felt like it's my fault because it's my body, right? That's not doing something right. So it means that it's all on me. It's not so much Leslie's. So what happens? So as a couple, these are the questions that I know other couples also have.

It's a conversation that I think sometimes just happens to come up when a couple has faced so many losses, or even if it's just the one, because naturally I think

When people get together, get married or decide to be a long-term partnership, this is one of the results or the reasons why. What happens after, if that makes sense. So when that doesn't happen, it was just a massive elephant in the room that needed to be addressed. Vesta and Leslie in conversation with Katharina and Josef. We'll hear more from both couples in just a moment. I'm James Reynolds. You're listening to The Documentary from the BBC World Service.

We were offered therapy to try and talk to someone about what's happening to me and the emotions and us as a couple and what that means. And I think one of the miscarriages I had, which was before my second daughter, which was I think a bit more traumatic because it came with surgery. After that, my consultant sat me down and said, Vesta, you really now need to speak to someone because this is something that after that, your chances of having children are slimmer.

So you need to really sit down and see maybe if it means you're just going to have the one child. I still stayed positive because I think my faith in me and there was something telling me that I am meant to be a mother and it's just going to happen. It might take a bit longer or whatever. So the support was going to come through talking therapy, which I never took up. And I don't know why I never took it up. I just felt like I can do this by myself. Me and Leslie, we are strong. We can do this together.

But after a while, I opened up to friends and family, and that's when they also opened up and said, actually, we've gone through this. And throughout my life, I have come encounter with women that have gone through that, complete strangers to me, but we strike up a conversation, we start talking, and then actually, there's almost like a healing process that happens when you open up.

The shame is massive, and I think within our community, me being from West African background, we don't actually have words to describe miscarriage, if that makes sense. It's not something that happens, and when it happens to a woman, they're asked to be quiet about it, not talk about it, so that it doesn't happen again. We do believe that the more you talk about it, the more it might happen to you. So the shame is real, and it was big, but now, years down the line,

I do encourage, and I've got a platform where I encourage to talk for other women, especially within African culture or ethnic minorities, to really talk about it. Because if not, we stand alone, you see. And if not, the things that go on, which are quite normal, even though it is an abnormal result, then becomes hidden, and then you deal with it yourself. And I don't know, people just are in the dark. And I'm very open. I talk about it freely. I have the platform that

Allows me to do that. And I've met people that have watched what I have talked about and then meet me out and about. Do you remember you had this episode on this and that? I really relate to it. Or someone would text me that actually trying to conceive is not as easy.