Vivek Murthy
Appearances
NPR News Now
NPR News: 01-03-2025 6PM EST
The science has been building for years, creating greater and greater certainty about more and more types of cancer.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And so I would often tell them, just come over and bring your kids. Don't worry if they're screaming, if they make a mess, don't worry if they're going to break something. Just be yourself and come over. And that just really lowered the barrier for us having time together.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
There's something else that's going on, something deeper that's actually breaking our spirits.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Well, that's absolutely right. And it's counterintuitive because we think young people are connected by technology all the time. Why would they be lonely? It's because a few things are going on. Number one, connecting through technology, having friends online is not the same as having friends in person.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And what has happened over time, especially as social media has become just such a deeply ingrained part of our lives, is that we've moved from having confidants to contacts, from having friends to having followers, a shift from quality of friends to quantity. And the truth is that there are certain things you can just say to people online that you would never say to them in person, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Because you know it might be hurtful or you might adjust how you say it. But when we're in person with other people, it's just a richer interaction. See, because we evolved over thousands of years as human beings to actually have in-person reactions, interactions, to not only hear what somebody is saying, but to appreciate the tone of their voice and the expression on their face.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Amber, I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds hard to feel that way, especially after you're used to being around people for so many years. How have you been managing those feelings of loneliness?
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Yeah, well, they certainly are more likely to experience loneliness when they have shifts, life shifts like you just had, right? Where all of a sudden you're taken away from a high volume of interaction with others. So in some ways, yes, you know, there's where to risk for you with making a move like you're making.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
But Amber, what I would say is that, number one, I just so appreciate you having the courage to talk about this openly. That's not easy. That's a big step, I'd say. And the second thing just is to remember that you're not the only one who's lonely. I know it seems like everyone else is connected, going to parties, hanging out with friends, you know, just...
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
surrounded by people all the time because that's what their feeds look like on social media, right? It's what people post about. Nobody posts about the lonely moment that they're having or not knowing on a Friday night what they're going to do or not having plans for New Year's Eve.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
But the truth is one thing I realized when I was single for many years and I would feel particularly on Valentine's Day, I'd feel really alone. is I realized that when I started reaching out to people, that a lot of my friends were also feeling kind of alone, sometimes because they were single, sometimes they were paired, but their partner was far away, right? And they couldn't be with somebody.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
So we actually just started getting together on Valentine's Day, recognizing that we actually weren't alone, that there were a bunch of folks who were also feeling the way we were. So I just would, I want to tell you that because I know sometimes it's not obvious based on what you see on social media.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Well, that's a really good question, Amber. I think one thing I would encourage you to think about is during your alone time, is to think about what do you enjoy doing? Like, is it taking walks or exercising? Is it reading? Is it journaling and reflecting? Like, what is it that actually gives you some joy? And just to recognize... What is that?
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Yeah, that's great. There's no prescription for how much time you should be spending alone in that way. Like this is really, it's different from person to person, introvert to extrovert. But what's really important is that you have at least some time on a regular basis, ideally a few minutes each day where you can just be on your own, let that noise settle and just Be yourself.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And if you do that on a regular basis and it feels good, you can do a little bit more, right? But making sure you protect it is important because one of the things that we were just talking about earlier is there are all kinds of forces around us that siphon our attention away.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
They pull us into something else, whether it's spending more time on social media or reading about what's happening in the world. And none of those things are bad in and of themselves. It's good to be informed about the world. Sometimes it's good that it can come from social media. But that can suck up all of the white space in our lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
So before it used to be that whenever we were meeting a friend for dinner and they were late by 10 minutes, We waited for 10 minutes and we just thought, we watched what was happening around us. That was just time when we were on our own. But we fill all of that time now with our devices. So I would just encourage you also just to think during those times of solitude to protect them, right?
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
To keep your devices out of it, you know, and just make sure that even if it's just for a few minutes, you have that time on your own. And the rest of your day, you know, can be spent with people as you wish. But we all need that solitude, even if it's just a little bit each day.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
The truth is all of us are craving for something that will strengthen our spirits and fill that hole. And community is our solution.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Well, Devlin, first, I'm so sorry about the loss of your parents. I think that's one of the biggest losses that we can experience in life.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
So that's a big loss. And I think giving yourself grace and space to recognize that that's not a loss we ever fill in 100%. We don't forget about the parents we lost. That hole will be there. But the pain we experience can diminish over time. And part of what helps in doing that is, number one, to be able to speak openly about our parents and about what we're going through.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
To be able to share who they were, what their joys were that they brought to your life. Like, what kind of people were they? How did they inspire you? To be able to talk... the people you care about and love about your parents is important. To be able also to talk to others who are going through this kind of loss can be incredibly helpful, Devlin.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And sometimes we think that because somebody went three, four, five months, you know, after a loss, they're probably fine now. We're not fine, right? These losses stay with us for a long time. We miss our parents for years. My grandfather, who I was very close to, my maternal grandfather, died when I was in 10th grade. And I still miss him.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
I still think about the multiplication tables we used to do together, about the walks he would take me on to the ice cream store. And whenever something good happens in my life, I still wish he was there. So that won't go away. But the pain that we feel can turn to pride and to positive memories.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
That's a really good question. And let me just say, I'm so excited and proud of what you're doing. I mean, this is extraordinary. You're helping build community. You're helping solve the loneliness epidemic in our country and in the world. So thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
I think there are two big reasons why people are scared to be alone. I think one is cultural. I think we live in a very extroverted society, and we essentially tell people, if you're alone on Friday nights, if you're alone on holidays, if you choose to be alone, then something's wrong with you, and maybe you're not desirable in some way.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
I think the second reason, though, is actually biological and evolutionary, which is that we evolved over thousands of years to need one another. And when we were hunters and gatherers, like the person who said, you know what, I can do it on my own. I don't need anybody else. That person got eaten. I was going to say, was devoured. Yes.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Or they starved, you know, because they didn't have enough food. But it was the people who said, you know what, we're going to come together, build trusted relationships. Those are the people who survived and did well. So when we're separated. from one another, it actually induces this stress state, a physiological stress state in our body. And that can make us feel fearful.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
It can also have biological impacts on us, increasing inflammation in our body and increasing our risk of heart disease and dementia, as well as depression and anxiety. So they are both cultural and biological reasons why people are scared to be alone. But I do think, to come back to something Oprah and I were talking about earlier, it's really important
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
To recognize that some solitude in your life is important. That being lonely and being alone aren't the same thing. That sometimes the welcome aloneness that we all need from time to time to just be with ourselves and reflect and let our thoughts settle and just be without doing anything. That's important for all of us, whether it's a few minutes a day or a few hours.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
There are a lot of health issues we're dealing with, Oprah, but one of the questions I have been grappling with the most during my time as Surgeon General over two terms now has been the question of what is the deeper root cause of so much of the pain and unhappiness that I've been seeing all across our country and really around the world.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Well, Oprah, I'm so glad that we're talking about this because 10 years ago, I don't think we would have been having conversations about issues like loneliness. Yeah. Because when I went through medical school, for example, I never learned about loneliness as a health issue when I was growing up as a kid.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And the explanations that we see in the papers, economic challenges, violence, discrimination, other structural challenges, these are all real. They contribute. There's something else that's going on, something deeper that's actually breaking our spirits.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And contributing to this crisis of spirit. And what I've come to realize now, after all of these stories and digging into the data and research and reflecting deeply on this, is that there are three critical forces for fulfillment that we need in our life that have been eroding. Relationships, purpose, and service.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
These three elements, relationships, purpose, and service, are the essence of community. And community is what sustains us. It's both good for our life satisfaction, but also for our life expectancy, because it improves our physical and mental health. It helps us deal with adversity when it comes about.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And my hope for the country I love and for the world that I hope my children will inherit one day, and all of our children, is that we recommit to grounding our lives in relationships, purpose, and service.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
That we recognize that, yes, there are forces around us that are, especially for young people, telling them that success is about fame and wealth and power, and that triad of success should guide their life. But I believe the triad of fulfillment, relationships, purpose, and service, is what we need now more than ever.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Oprah, when I have moments when I feel anxious about the future, when I find myself worried about whether I'm doing enough in terms of my own accomplishments or whether I'm reaching enough people, et cetera, and I have those moments,
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
I try to remember the lesson that my patients taught me over the years, the patients who were at their end of life, who I was so privileged to sit next to and hold their hands when they were reflecting in their final moments on what really mattered, what made for a good life.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
What's interesting to me, Oprah, is they never talk about how many followers they had on social media or how much money was in their bank account or how big their corner office was or how long their resume was. What they talk about were people, the people they loved, the people they helped, the people whose lives they touched.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
It's so clear that in the most important moments of life, when only the most meaningful strands remain, that is what rises to the top. And I don't want us to have to wait till the end of our life to realize that.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
I feel like if we make the decision today that we are going to remake our lives and the elements of the world that we touch, whether it's our workplaces, our schools, our neighborhoods, around these critical elements of relationships, purpose, and service, we can build a fulfilling life for ourselves.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Well, I do think it's gotten worse, and we can talk about some of the reasons why. Okay. But I think even for those of us who may have been experiencing loneliness years ago, and I include myself in that mix. As a kid, I struggled a lot with loneliness. The scariest part of the school day for me was lunchtime, walking to that cafeteria not knowing if I'd be able to sit next to somebody.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
We can create a future for our kids that we are proud of, a future that embraces them, a future that ultimately supports their well-being.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
I'm so glad you said that, Oprah, because there's a very interesting... thing that's happening, which is that there are forces around us that are telling us that the way to fill the emptiness that many of us feel is to focus more and more on ourselves, right? To acquire more, to achieve more.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Exactly, to do more. Yeah. But it turns out that when we focus on connecting to something bigger than ourselves, that's actually when we find joy. It's why service is one of the most powerful antidotes to loneliness. It's why building community is one of the most important things we can do for our health and well-being.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And one of the people who taught me this was actually my father, who said a very interesting and unexpected thing to me one day. He said, Vivek, the... First time I really felt the emptiness, that feeling that something was missing in my life and it was painful and it was gnawing was when I left my village in India. And I was surprised he said that because his life in the village was hard.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
They lived in extreme poverty. They didn't have money to buy shoes or slippers. There wasn't enough money to buy food, you know, for dinner each night. Life was hard, but in the village, people took care of each other. They looked out for each other's kids. If you were hungry, they had you come over and share in whatever little they had.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
People also knew each other, not just their names, but they knew their stories. They spent time with one another and in each other, They found purpose in contributing to each other's lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
My grandfather would, even though despite the poverty they lived through, he would spend a few weeks every year traveling from village to village, raising money so they could build a youth hostel so the students could study in the village. And people would say to him, you're so irresponsible. Your own family doesn't have enough to eat.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Why are you going around and raising money for these other kids? And he would always just say, those kids are our kids too. That sense of purpose that we're here to take care of each other, contribute to each other's lives, that's what my father had in the village. He had relationships, he had a culture of service, he had a sense of purpose. And that's what we need to rebuild in all of our lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
It has eroded over time, but it doesn't mean it can't be rebuilt. And it doesn't mean that that's what we're not all called to. I think the trap we fall into is into thinking that we're the only ones who are feeling lonely, who are feeling that emptiness inside. The truth is all of us are craving for something that will strengthen our spirits and fill that hole. And community is our solution.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
But for all of us who experienced it, for many of us, we thought we were the only ones.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And it was only years later, Oprah, when I reconnected with classmates from school, that many of them said, oh wait, you were struggling with loneliness too? So was I. I thought I was the only one. But I think that a chance to talk about it now is really important because the two things that I have learned about loneliness is that, one, it's extraordinarily common.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
So more than half of young people are struggling with loneliness, a third of adults.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
So that's the right question. And I think it comes down to the fact that whether we're lonely or not has to do with the quality of connections in our life, not the quantity. So if we have, for example, thousands of followers on social media, it doesn't necessarily mean that we're not lonely. And there's nothing wrong with having thousands of followers.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
But if we rely on that network as our source of social sustenance, then that can be problematic. What matters is the quality.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
That's right. Because the quality of connections, Oprah, is really about do we have people who know us deeply for who we are? Do we know others? Are we able to show up for them in a crisis? And do they show up for us? Can we be ourselves around other people? And if we're honest about it, and I include myself in this mix too, many of us probably walk around the world with masks on.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
trying to be somebody that we think other people want us to be or what society tells us we should be. And sometimes, though, if you have the chance to be with somebody who's a true friend where you can take that mask off and just be yourself, you know how good that feels, how powerful it is? Those are the kind of relationships that actually contribute to a sense of connection.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Yeah, and Oprah, just out of curiosity, how much time do you think in a given day you spend alone in solitude?
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Yeah. And would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert? Oh, absolutely introvert.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Yes. What's interesting, you know, a lot of people think that I'm an extrovert in my job because I have to meet lots of people and engage with communities across the country. But the truth is I'm an introvert too and have always been my whole life. And for people who are introverts, you need more time in solitude. So what is solitude? Well, solitude is a state of welcome aloneness.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
It's we're by ourselves or other people around us, but we don't feel sad. We don't feel like something is missing or lacking in our lives.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And those moments of solitude, actually we all need, whether we're introverts or extroverts, what differs is how much we need. So an extrovert might need very little solitude. Yes. An introvert might need a lot more like us. Yes. But the truth is we all need it because something very important happens in moments of solitude. That is where we allow the noise around us to settle.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
It's when we can reflect on what's actually happening in our life. It's when we can just let ourselves be grounded and actually relax a bit. Because what's happening a lot of times, especially in the current world where we have so much coming at us through digital mediums and other platforms, is we feel like we're constantly being stimulated by something. We have to engage in a particular way.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
We have to perform for others. And solitude can be a time where it's just for you. where there's no pressure to be anyone. There's no pressure to do anything. It's just time for you. Now, how we experience solitude, Oprah, could be really different.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
For some people, solitude could be a few minutes when they're sitting on their stoop in front of their house and feeling the breeze against their face. For others, it could be settling in to just read a book by yourself or to journal and think about and reflect on what's happening in your life. It could be time in meditation or prayer.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
We may have different ways we experience solitude, but we all need some of it in our life.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And even there, most people will bring their devices into the bathroom these days too. So even that solitude has been taken away. But you're right that there's actually a discomfort with being alone that has grown because one of the promises of our devices, our phones in particular, was that we would never have to be alone. So we carry them with us everywhere.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Right, and when we are, we feel a little anxiety, like, oh my gosh, where is it? What am I supposed to be doing right now? But I actually think one of the skills that we have to build, just like brushing our teeth or taking a shower, is actually learning how to be with ourselves and find peace in that solitude.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
It's an important skill that I'm trying to teach my kids also right now who are six and eight. Sometimes they also just want to be around something all the time, but we'll sometimes as a family just sit together and say, okay, for 60 seconds, we're just going to close our eyes and we're going to breathe together. 60 seconds of solitude. That's it.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
So, but that's just a small way to start getting used to what it feels like to be alone. And the time where I realized that maybe it was starting to work was the other day I took my son into the pool and nobody else was there. It was just me and him. And you couldn't hear cars. You couldn't hear anything. It was just the breeze, the trees, and the two of us. And he suddenly just stopped.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
He looked around and he said, Papa, it's so peaceful. And we sat there for like a minute or two.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
Well, Elaine, first of all, thank you for sharing that story. It's not easy sometimes to share our struggles with loneliness. And as somebody who felt embarrassed for many years about my own loneliness, I know that takes courage. So thank you.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And the second thing I just want to say is that I think I have felt what you are describing, that feeling that once your friends get married and have kids, it's like, where'd they go? You know, they disappeared and you don't have much interaction with them anymore. And that can be a really lonely experience. Here's how I think about old versus new friends.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
First, we actually all need some friends who are physically around us. You know, I have a lot of really close friends, but they're far apart. They're not in the city that I live in. And one of the things I've had to think through is how do I build some friendships locally? Because how often we see our friends in person really does make a difference. So thinking about is there somebody at work?
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
or in school if I'm in school, or in my neighborhood, who I might want to spend a little bit more time with. They could be taking a walk. It could be just having lunch together at work one day when we're both eating lunch. It could be volunteering or helping a neighbor out who might be having trouble in their yard. But these can actually help us build the in-person connections that we need.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And if you don't have old friends in person, that's really important. But the second thing I would say on this is that With old friends, quantity really does matter more than quality. Sometimes we may have a lot of people from our prior lives, school, old jobs, growing up, and we might try to spend a little bit of time with a whole lot of people.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
But what I would say is if you can spend a whole lot of time with a few people, That's a much better way to deepen those relationships. And sometimes that means showing up to where they are. You know, I used to sometimes go to my married friends who had kids. I would just go over during bath time, you know, for their kids, you know, in the evening when they're giving them dinner.
The Oprah Podcast
Dr. Vivek Murthy
And I would just help out. I'd read stories sometimes. And then sometimes they would just come over and help me as well. And I would just tell them to put their mind at ease. Because keep in mind, a lot of parents, even though it doesn't look like this on the outside, they are actually very lonely too. Because parenting is actually quite isolating.