Willa Bennett

I said, oh, my God.

No, I literally agree. That should have been the beginning of my intro.

I texted Peyton saying, hey, can I have Hunter's number? And she said, LOL, imagine I said no. I was like, that's private. Don't do that.

Okay, I'm obviously a lover. I'm like the most like genuine, sincere, like cheesy girl in the world.

I'm such a lover.

I, like, am obsessed with Valentine's Day. Really?

It's really surprising. I think it's, like, so cute. Like, I love looking on everyone's Instagrams. I love, like, going out on a date. Everything about Valentine's Day is perfect.

I don't know. Just a full dinner date. That's the only thing that matters. Oh.

And that's for straight people. But a nice dinner, spaghetti.

Very exciting. I was honored that you wrote the story. I texted Hunter being like, hey, I can't tell you who the cover stars are, but... Hear me out. And basically, eventually, whenever it was confirmed, she signed to NDA. And I feel like I was so honored that you got the mission immediately.

I really wanted to put a romantic relationship on the cover. I felt like it was so going back to the roots of Cosmo. And I had seen tweets of them and they'd come up in a couple of brainstorms. And our talent booker was like, I think like this is an interesting story. And we kind of all came together, but it had to be done right. And like you were so important for that.

Yeah, you went to their favorite spots. You came to set even. Yeah. And yeah, I just like loved how immediately you got it. You got the story. You were like, I see it. And I feel like you really helped recontextualize them into pop culture in a really cool way.

And that means a lot in this house. No, they truly are in love. Like truly, I have seen tons of couples. I've done tons of couple stories. Like on set, I was like, holy fucking shit. Like they love each other. Like I remember at the fitting, like he came and just like wanted to sit next to her and was just like looking at me like, that looks so good on you. You're doing amazing.

And it was so sweet. And there was like a monitor so they could see everything. And he would always look and be like, you look amazing, Brenda. And it was just so sweet. And I remember when you came at the end, I was like, look how much he's obsessed with her. Like everything she does is just like so perfect.

And I feel like he really calms her down, which she actually admitted to in the story, which I thought was like you captured so perfectly. And He is just so sweet and really talks about how she really brought him down to earth and love healed him.

Yeah, it's been really amazing. I feel like I see the opportunity and I like don't take it lightly. I think I grew up reading Cosmo. So I think for me, I was just very interested in like, wow, what a platform to have for young people right now. And I think especially around the topics of love, like who do we go to? Like there's nothing really out there. There's some TikTokers that we love.

There's some people on social media I follow. But there wasn't like a real authority in this way. So I saw the opportunity and I think it was important to me that the first issue really said something. And so I went with a couple. But, you know, it's just the beginning, truly.

Totally. I mean, I also like started this job before, you know, Trump was elected president and like, obviously there's such a different context to it now, but I think at its core, like Cosmo is about love and relationships and love and relationships are through everything we do. It's like, you know, the way we dress, the way we interact with our friends. Like, it's not even just romantic.

So I see the opportunity in there. And then Seventeen, that cover coming soon, actually.

Yeah.

I'm excited. There's more to come there. But Cosmo, I just feel like now is the time.

Yeah, I think it's all about love. Like my vision is just like it's love and relationships. Like Cosmo is about like why we love the way we love and like who we love and what we love. And it's not about telling you what to wear. It's about love. why you're wearing what you're wearing.

And I've been talking to the team a lot about like leading with curiosity rather than like telling our readers what to do. And so I think at the end of the day, it's like really about love, to be honest. And that is what Cosmo was founded in 60 years ago.

Yeah. I try to be excited about that and like really just be, like, how amazing that we are, like, able. There's so many people who have been, like, subscribing, for example, for 60 years. Wow. And, like, all, like, get DMs being like, hey, I noticed you changed the logo. And I'm like, wow, how freaking cool that, like, people are that loyal to Cosmo that they noticed, you know?

No, I'm your Cliff Chalamet. I literally was like, you're my dream to write this cover. I can't tell you who it is, but like, please, please, please. You're like, why are you begging me?

Okay, so it basically leaked. And I, last week, it was supposed to go live in a week from now. It was supposed to go live like the Monday after Valentine's Day. Okay, yeah. And I, last Friday. Thursday, I woke up and all these people on Slack were like, oh, this is out.

And I guess like someone had somehow found the issue online through Apple News, screenshotted it, shared it on Twitter, had 90K likes. And I was like, fuck. And not a link.

No link? Because there was no link.

So then I was like, oh my God. So I reached out to the person. I was like, hey, this actually doesn't go live yet. And they took it down. That never happens well. But then it came back up. And then over the weekend, all over TikTok. I was like, how is this happening? Anyway, there's an app that I don't even know what it is called, Libby. That's what the fans were telling me this morning.

They were like, it's out on Libby. It actually didn't leak. So I guess whatever Libby is, they somehow got the issue and they leaked it or they posted it. And all the fans were like, release it, release, release it. And it's been trending twice now. First was like, wow, Cosmopolitan put it out. Now it's like Vogue put them on the cover is the second round. And people are like tagging Anna.

And I'm like, hey, it's a really good idea.

But I'm like, put them on the cover of Vogue. They're amazing. Do you guys watch Live Island? Of course.

Only one. I love my Powerpuff Girls. But another couple that's actually in love. Like on set, I was like, wow, they really love each other.

They really have crazy fandom. Why do you think as like pop culture experts, like they are the ones?

Here's your bed, go dry hump in it. No, they're really special. They're really in love. And I think they're so aware that people keep asking to be their third and they're both like, nah. And I think that's what the internet is responding to this morning is they're just like, we don't want, this is for us.

There is a big debate at Cosmo on staff. There's a ton of people who are polyphobic and actively talk about it. And that was so surprising for me coming in because I'm like, we're pro everything. Whatever works for you, that's like the Cosmo way. But all of these people are like, no, we're polyphobic here.

Of course, I feel like the biggest thing for them was taking them seriously as pop culture stars. Yes. And I felt like all of their press was like them and Fashion Nova or them like, it was still like Love Island-y. And I was like, no, they are legitimate celebrities. Yeah. Let's shoot them in that way. And Marcus Allen, who did the styling with Brandon Tan, incredible.

I think what they did together was... Beyond My Wildest Dreams. Society Archive is like amazing. It's mostly vintage. And I think the way that they style them really just like put the shoot forward. Is there anything you guys miss about magazines? That's what I want to know.

Don't sleep on 17. It's coming more soon. Yeah.

Thank you guys for having me.

We'll see.

Hey y'all, welcome back to Made It Out. We are in New York shooting so many exciting episodes for y'all and today is Willa Bennett, who's the editor-in-chief of Cosmopolitan and Seventeen magazine. We talk about her life and her journey to the incredible position that she holds now and

You know, I talk about how I came out and my eating disorder, like... really improved. And like, you know, I, I, not that weight loss is the goal, but like I lost a shit ton of weight and just felt really good in my body and my skin cleared up and like just all these things.

But I think it was because I was coming back into myself and I was finally listening to the things that I wanted and that I needed. And so I feel like coming out really just like changed the trajectory of my life. I quit my corporate job. I like started doing more creative things and just like following what I always knew I wanted to do. But I did not like denied myself for ever.

I do think it's like all entangled. And I think that everybody can have like a coming out moment. Cause I think, you know, we all do things that where we follow the trends or we follow like what everybody else is doing. And then it's like, you kind of have this moment of, okay, wait, I'm not doing what I should be.

And I think even if it's not being gay, it's like coming back to that and following those things are, I don't know, can really change a person. Totally. Yeah. And like really being in your life. Like one of my friends just went through a pretty brutal breakup and she was like completely blindsided. Like they live together and someone just like came home and they broke up and

I kept being like, you're going to start living your life again. Like you are like, this is going to be the best thing that happened to you. Like you in like a couple months are going to text me and be like, I'm in my life for the first time again. And agree. It's like not even everyone can have that moment.

Like whether it's like something happens in your job or, you know, you get laid off or go through like a unexpected breakup. It's like, it's so important to just like be with your body and, um, in your feelings and not be afraid of that. And it is harder, I would say, like, I think it's really easy to ignore what you're feeling, which it sounds like you were doing for a really long time.

And you're such an amazing story of like, it pays off to really like be with yourself. Yeah. I think also though, we don't, we don't teach this. Totally. We don't talk about it. We don't teach it. It's not something that like, even my mom, I love her. She did the best that she could, but it's not something that she necessarily knew how to do. Totally. Yeah.

So I don't think we're like instilling this in our girls, especially, you know, it's funny cause I grew up with a brother and I watched my brother be kind of inspired to do whatever he wants to don't have a plan B don't, you know, and I, didn't necessarily get that same direction, you know? And so it's just interesting how we teach our boys, how we teach our girls, just kids in general.

It's like, we don't talk about these somatic things and like instill it into our kids. And then it does have like a long lasting effect. And then you, then you turn 28 and you come out and you're like, God damn it. If only somebody would have said this to me, like, or given me the option. Yeah.

I feel like what I always want to say to my younger siblings is like relationships, like don't have to feel crazy. Like they're actually not supposed to feel crazy. I feel like they'll tell me about different dynamics they're in romantically. And I'm like, wait, this is like not how it's supposed to feel. It's supposed to feel calming. It's supposed to feel exciting.

It's supposed to feel like exhilarating, but not like It's not supposed to be chaotic. Like, it's just not. And I think that is something, especially with your body, like, you know if something feels safe. You know if something feels nice. Like, listen to that and honor that more than thinking that, like, your situation trip is supposed to make you cry. Like, that's not... how it should be.

And there is someone out there that like, is not going to make you want to feel bad about yourself. Yeah. I just wish more people talked about that. And I really think this one story in Cosmo, I think it's why it resonated with me so much when I was reading it last night. Cause I was like, yes, like your body knows, like break up with your situationship. If it's making you feel sick, like end it.

It seems so simple. Like go to the woods. There's more people. too specific now. Yeah. I will say whenever I hear people come to me with their relationship and it's like super tumultuous and there's all this like stuff. And I kind of just think of like mine and Matilda's relationship. It's been the easiest, really easiest, easiest relationship.

No, from like day one, it was just like, yeah, we love each other and we see it going the distance and that's it. It's never been like, should I text you or should I like play? I don't know. It's always just been very simple. Yeah. And we've worked through our problems and we're very communicative on like how we feel about each other. And my mom always tells me,

The beginning of a relationship that's right is going to be the funnest, the best time ever. And then like once you start having kids and all of like life hits, then that's when it gets hard. But it's like, it should be really fun and easy. Yeah. And I really like relate to that. I'm like, it needs to feel easy and natural and you're complimenting each other's lives.

And the second it gets too hard and complicated, it's like, you know, it's funny. My dad said the best advice to me the other day. He was like, you can't choose who's in your family. True him, which I love. He's the best. He's like one of my best friends. So I say that with love. I was like, but he's like, but you can choose who you date. And I was like, so freaking true dad. That's so true.

I'm so happy to have you here. Thank you. I told you before, but our team is just like ecstatic. We've been talking about this interview for a long time. So thank you for being here. Of course. No, thank you for having me. You're making me look so cool at the Cosmos staff. You're giving me like cool points beyond, uh, everyone's like, wow, you're going on that cool podcast. You're so cool.

Profound, yes. Like, you can't choose your family, but you can choose who you date. Anyway, sometimes my dad's advice lapse every once in a while. And if you think about it, you're choosing who your kid's family is going to be. So true. So really think that through before your kids hate you someday.

No, it's just like, yeah, it's like that person needs to be making you so freaking happy and like make you feel good about yourself. And communication is huge. I feel like at Cosmo we talk a lot about healthy relationships and through line is almost always open, honest communication. Almost always. Like pretty much every single person I say you read at the end, it's like open, honest communication.

And I'm like, so true. It's, but like, you have to be able to talk through anything. I always say the outside world's hard, but what you have between two people is like, you're supposed to be on the same page about things and team and supportive and obviously easier said than done. But I think being able to talk about things is so important.

I feel like you probably in the line of work that you do, you get to hear so, Oh yeah. Like there's probably so many through lines with like advice and just like, or like patterns. What are some of them? open, honest communication, um, being able to talk about things.

I think something right now that I'm seeing a lot across the internet is like people dating with different political views and how hard that is and like what people's boundaries are around it. Um, so that I feel like is very topical right now, the, the open relationships and kind of had a thing. And now right now with Gen Z, we're seeing that monogamy is like

really appealing to them more appealing than usual and that's kind of been interesting to watch huh kind of goes in waves I feel like so I feel like in like six months I'll be like open relationships are back um but this is just for younger audiences so I think that's been kind of interesting I think it makes sense though like it's so scary out there so it's

I think there's comfort in monogamy for young people who are maybe this is the first like real election they're going through or the first time they're able to vote. So that feels like a natural progression. Going out and meeting in real life is really trendy right now. Dating apps are declining. However, I do think they'll probably pick up again. But it's interesting.

I really think people want like a traditional meet cute generally right now. It makes total sense. I actually did just read something about this, how it's like Gen Z is kind of rejecting online culture in general. And I think about it. I'm like, oh, my God, our kids are going to watch like all the stuff that we put online and they're going to be like, my mom was so embarrassed.

Don't you think about that? Wait, that's so funny. Oh my God. My kids listening to this, they're going to be like, you're crazy. What the hell were you doing? You can't choose me. I can't freaking choose you either. That's so, so, so funny. I've never thought about that. And then suddenly new anxiety unlocks. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Um, yeah, I, that's, that's interesting.

I was like, I thought I was cool before, but thank you. So I'm really thanking you. I want to start with just who are you? Where are you from? Where'd you grow up? What was your queer journey like? Yes. Willa Bennett. I grew up in L.A. I was a ballet dancer and I feel like I was, you know, in dance classes with a lot of other women and close to them.

I, I think the meet you thing is really interesting. Cause if you think about it, like I grew up in like the love reading, you're like reading love stories. You'd like go to a coffee shop and like trip and fall and your husband would catch you. And then like you got married and kids the next day. Yeah. Like we don't have that. So you like go to get your coffee in the morning.

You're like on Instagram, unfortunately. You're like scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. You check TikTok. You answer three emails. And by the way, like it's like your coffee's ready because you ordered it online. Who are you going to talk to? That is so true.

And I actually just listened to this podcast where they were talking about, we are missing out on like real life interactions because we are looking at like in an elevator. Fucking look up from your phone. Like you're missing. And so our social cues are declining. Because none of us are looking at each other. My social cues are definitely declining. I can confirm. This happened this week.

It's so interesting. Wednesday, I have a local coffee shop that I actually do go to quite often. And I talk to the barista every single day. I always bring her Cosmos or I bring her magazines. And we talk. Anyway, she loves movies. We talk about movies. So I was there like kind of like a while on Wednesday, just like talking to her and she's making me my coffee.

And I left and someone DM me being like, were you at this coffee shop? And I was like, huh? But I was, so I responded immediately being like, yeah. And she was like, oh my God, I wish I said hi. I thought it was you, but I wasn't sure. Like, oh my God, like would love to, would love to like get coffee one day. And I was like, that is so cool that she did that. Yeah.

Like, I don't know if it's professional, personal, romantic. I actually have no idea. You have to do it. it just because you have to find out. I was like, it's so cool that you did that. I'm obviously going to do it. So TBD. But, uh, I was like, that is so fucking cool. I would never do that. Yeah. Oh my God. Me neither.

I would never even, I wouldn't even know what to say, but it was like, Hey, were you at this specific coffee shop? Like I saw you. And then I was like, yeah. And she was like, I can't believe I didn't say hi. Like, Oh my God. Like I would love to get coffee. I live nearby. This could be your meet cute. Literally. I hope so. I'm I'm going to stay tuned. I'll be like, Hey, how'd coffee go?

I was like, that is so fucking badass. I think if you want a meet, meet cute, get off the apps. You're going to get it. I, I like hated the apps and I always knew in my head, like I am going to meet someone in a very weird way. And Matilda and I met, she was casting me for a reality TV show and that's how we met. That's so fucking cool. So I was fucking my boss, you know, romantic. Don't do that.

How's my editor says, don't do that. Maybe not that, but like, you know, it worked out for you guys. It worked out for us. What's like, what's like, what was like a hard conversation early on that you guys were like, all right, we can do this. Okay. So we met because she cast me and then we start dating. And then obviously like I was living there.

And so the crew would show up and I would have to like leave and like bring a bag and then show up as if I hadn't as if I didn't live there. So I'd be like, Hey, like, you know what? And like my dogs were in the back house. So like, it was just like all very messy, but then the show was going to get green lit.

And so we were like, fuck, we like, we're going to have to tell them that we're dating because then we're like, they're going to have to film me like at the house. Now you're going to have to be in the show. It was just kind of like a mess. The network did a full sexual investigation to make sure that she wasn't like promising me a part for sex. So that was a little hard. It was hard.

Honestly, that was a hard conversation.

It all was hard because Matilde really did not want to be on TV. Like she is not, she's very private. She doesn't want people like Googling her, you know, whatever. And so then it was like, well, now I'm going to be on this like,

basically housewife style show and she's gonna have to be on tv because we're together so it was just like really kind of that's hard complicated at the beginning and it was like my wants versus your wants and what's right and you know whatever but it didn't end up going through so it was fine and that's a lot of things like you're talking about your relationship to fame you're talking about social media you're talking about dynamics you're talking about in the workplace dynamic yeah that's a lot i think to navigate as an early early couple but i always say it's kind of

And I feel like when you're a dancer, you you have this closeness with your with the people you dance with. And I can never really tell if it was like we're a team doing like making something greater than us or if we're actually in love.

Sometimes it's not a blessing, but it's like sometimes actually great for the relationship when something hard happens earlier because you learn how you navigate it. And I think with a lot of couples, it is kind of a deal breaker and it's like almost nice to get that out of the way. Totally. I agree. I also think like.

Working together for most couples would be a nightmare, but I think that is how we met. And I also think I like it because a lot of our work dynamic is our relationship dynamic. Really? Wow. Yeah. I mean, like it doesn't leave like who I am in my life. real life is a lot of who I am in work, you know, like my impulses and like, I don't know, like I'm not very organized.

Some of the trends that she sees is how Gen Z is becoming more monogamous, how hard it is to date people with different political views than yourself, and also meeting people in real life instead of on the dating apps. Such a fun episode. I hope you all enjoy it. Y'all have been hearing me come on here and talk about phone plans for a while.

I'm just, it doesn't change, you know? So it's like, it's interesting because we're constantly communicating about our differences, like through all of these different scenarios. And I think you just learn a person and you're like, okay, I know you're like that. So, and then you're like adjusting in work. And then that helps in the relationship too. Yeah. I don't know.

It's interesting, but, and it takes a lot of communication. Yeah, but that's good and like healthy and, um, yeah, I don't know if I necessarily recommend it, but we love it. I want to dig in a little bit about what you said that you guys hear a lot about dating people with different political beliefs. What do you hear? What's your thoughts? It's interesting.

I think just right now, it's especially for women on dating apps. It's like, at what point do you ask that question? Like and a lot of this is like actually like straight relationships being like, hi, like, you know, we're going on the third date. And like, is this guy like going to vote against my rights or like not? you know, believe in my rights.

Um, and then I went, I've actually written about this before, but I went to a dance competition in San Diego and I like made out with this girl for the first time and I was like, wait, this is something I need to pay attention to. And that kind of like,

I think that is something I'm hearing a lot from like heterosexual dynamics. I will say like inherently, I think it does come sooner in a queer dynamic because they're already kind of not the, not the norm I would say.

Um, and the dynamic you're already recreating, but I will say in straight relationships, that is something we're seeing a lot and we're seeing like search around and people are coming to us for help. I don't think there is an answer. I think you have to bring it up when it's right and you have to decide what your boundaries are. We,

There are some people that have said like, I cannot even like go on a date. There's some people who draw a line in the sand. There are some people are like, you know, I'm okay with these type of beliefs, but this is my like red flag. I think you have to do what's right for you. And I won't judge you, but I really understand and sympathize with someone that can't date someone that

votes against their interests. I think that would be really difficult for me. Yeah. I feel the same way. I would be like, I can't even go on a date. I think it's interesting to what we're seeing in like the dating show culture now. Yes. Love is blind. It's like, it was all political. Yes. And yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. So interesting. Because this is how it is now. Yeah.

And it was like two for two on Love is Blind. And that was so fascinating. I edited a piece on it. And the writer, Olivia, like basically was like, this is where we are. Like, this is the era of dating we're in. But I was like, I mean, I have my opinions. Can I say my opinions? Yeah. On that one girl who basically with the gay sister. What's her name? Let's say her name.

Oh, you're good. Sarah has a gay sister. And so she's making... And they're, you know, talking about George Floyd. And she's just like, I need you to care about these things. Like, I need to be with someone who really understands and is paying attention. And he's basically just like, I... And at first you're like, yes, like... Say something to this guy. Like, I'm so glad you're speaking out.

But then she ends up dating him. She ends up marrying him. But what the fuck they do? That's what's crazy. Yeah. I think the marriage was so surprising. And then the other one ended. So it's like you have two examples on Love is Blind. One is like they had the conversation about politics. It was surprising. But it was also very disappointing. Done. The next one was like it was disappointing.

changed my whole view I had a really serious boyfriend in high school but looking back he was kind of amazing in retrospect because he was like you can be queer in a straight passing relationship that's okay like if you want to make out with girls that's fine oh my god so I kind of like in a crazy way was I didn't have the words for it at the time but I was in this like open relationship where I would make out with women and he would never like see anyone else

And then she was like, it's fine. You move forward. Married. Which is so...

weird to me I'm like how it feels performative in a way I don't know yeah I mean that's definitely performative but also what I'll say is so interesting is like now she's getting a ton of hate for marrying him and I'm like wait what hate him fair I mean so a fair both of them I'm like that's not a good dynamic but it's like obviously the woman's getting all the hate it's just like the whole thing is like disappointing to me and like depressing honestly yeah

But I do think like this is just where we're at now in these dating shows. I think you're going to hear about politics because that's what's going on in the real world. Yeah. It's really, really interesting. We had this piece, this writer Vera, she spent an entire year on a right wing dating app before, this is before Trump. Was it Date Right Stuff? Yeah. She did a bunch of different ones.

It's really, really interesting. She talks about... I think the part that is so nuanced in it is, like, her sexual attraction and, like, at what point she, like, actually couldn't be physically attracted to people. Like, where that line was drawn. And her conclusion, spoiler, is that, like, the second it came to, like, women's rights or LGBT rights was her line in the sand.

But there were other things that, like, you know, she was more willing to, like... she uses the word sympathize for, but it's not quite that. It's like, she did like have a nice fun date, you know? Right. And that I think is so nuanced and crazy. Yeah. That is interesting. It's an interesting like thought experiment.

Cause it's easy when I'm like, I'm in a relationship and I'm not out there dating these guys. Like I'm like, fuck that. I would never. But if you're in the scene and, and you're seeing this huge shift with all these men and this is where it's going, it does become more nuanced. Yeah. And statistically, Joe Rogan's podcast is literally number one. So it's like your pickings are like there.

You have a pretty good chance if you're dating someone on a dating app. I don't know. To running into. Yeah. You said it, not me. I was like, I got too sad. The audience knows what I'm thinking. It's fine. I was like, I didn't say it. Yeah, I think you should always be reading and you should always be like curious.

And I think that's why I love like reality TV because I do feel like there's people from all over like interacting and just watching the dynamics I think is so fascinating. And like what's happening in the reality TV space is such a reflection of the zeitgeist in such an unedited way.

I don't know if it's like more so since I've started working at Cosmo, but I've really been like into reality TV recently. Oh, I love it. I'm a housewives. Stan. Like in a way that I never was though. I think it is the Cosmo. Like I've been Cosmo'd because I like really do watch reality TV. Like we traders, we did Gabby Windy who's been on here.

Uh, and Robbie Hoffman's like wedding announcement exclusive, which is a teenies essay. Um, Trina Cordell. I love them. Yeah. I'm like all, I think it's such an interesting space and our audience like loves it. And I think it's, it's so, there's so much to talk about. Yeah. I love reality. I always been like people who watch reality TV are actually very smart.

We're studying like psychology and like social dynamics. And I, I love it. I will defend the housewives forever. So true. People who watch reality TV are perfect. Yeah. Perfect. Okay. We've jumped all over, but I have, I have one last question that I ask everyone. Oh my God. It's what are you working on in therapy? I'm working on in therapy. Hmm. That's interesting. A couple of things.

Exhaling being like, Calm. I'm working on not working on Sundays. I feel like I'm pretty like pretty much work seven days a week. And I'm I'm really trying to just like have Sundays to clear my head and going on more walks alone. Those are like the three things this week that like I feel like are really prevalent. Walks alone without your phone. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that would be like.

Oh, my gosh. How progressive. I know. It really was. Like, he's amazing. What did your parents think? Like, were you worried about telling your parents? Did you have any internal conflict or struggle? Yeah, they didn't really know. Like, no one really knew. It was just, like, kind of something that I was discovering and talking about in therapy.

My therapist, Ellen, would be so happy to hear you say that. Ellen's literally like, yes. No, I'm trying to definitely be on my phone less in general, but I think Sundays I'm really trying to like reserve for like – Nothing work related. Yeah. I love that. What do you do on Sundays though? Go for walks, get a smoothie, see a couple of friends. Yeah. Just like really not do anything work related.

I love that. Yeah. What are you working on in therapy? What am I working on in therapy? I, you know, I've taken a break from therapy for... Scamble. I know. How long have I not been in therapy? Like a couple of months. I need to find a new therapist. That is where I'm at. Ellen, I'll take recommendations. I think my therapist, I've loved her for... I've had her for like three years.

I've loved her, but she was very affirming and like... soft, which was really good for the timeframe that I was or the time period I was in. But now I think I'm in a different space and I need someone who pushes back on me and challenges me a little more.

Um, because a lot of the times I walk into therapy and I'm like, I know what's wrong with me, you know, and I'm telling her and I need someone who's going to be like, hold on, you know, and push. And I don't think I was getting that from my therapist. Um, I think going to the right therapist is really, really, really like understated.

I think especially there was like a boom of therapists or like people going to therapy in the pandemic. And now I'm like, is everyone with the right there? I say that to people a lot. I say to my friends all the time. I'm like, it's not just about going to therapy. It's having the right person at that right time. And it's like a relationship. Like you have to work on it and nurture it.

I've had a couple of different therapists in my life and like, I think they were right for that time. And so I think that's really true and really admirable that you were like, this isn't working. I'll find someone else. But you should definitely find someone. Yeah, for sure. And I've fought it for a while because I love her so much, you know, and I feel like she was great for me.

But there was a reason why I've taken a break and I haven't gone back. You know what I mean? Totally. Now, just after a couple months, now I've been like, okay, it's time. It's time for me to find someone else. And couples therapy is great. Have you guys been? Oh my gosh. We have the crazy, I mean, our listeners have heard this, but I'll tell you, the craziest, meanest couples therapist ever.

She's like this Russian lady and she's so hard on us. And when we first went, she was like, I'm not your friend. I'm not here to make friends. And she'll just like yell at one of us for 30 minutes and then be like, do your next. And then you yell at the other very like efficient, but she's like, apparently it's a method of therapy where it's like, you don't have time to fuck around.

Like you're just going, but also we're like, I think we need to find another. Wow. Because it's, it's a bit intense and we're like, we just need like touch-ups. Like we don't need, we're not like, she's like, if you're going through a divorce, like you're, you're on the brink and we're like, we're fine. We just like check it. You know, we need somebody to hold us accountable.

And I talked to my friends about it, but it wasn't really something I felt like I knew enough about to come out in a traditional sense. And when I went to college and I was single... I went to Sarah Lawrence, which I know we'll talk about. Um, we, I started like actually having feelings for women for the first time. And I had this one serious girlfriend that kind of like really shifted.

So, but yeah, that was our couples therapy. Wow. That's wild. I actually didn't know that. So, uh, that's wild, wild, wild. There was this article we just published that was so interesting that this new trend where Women in their 20s are going to couples therapy to help them break up. Whoa. And it's like, is the new breakup through couples therapy? It's really interesting.

And, like, there's all these statistics where it's, like, young women are just, like, so scared to break up with their partners because it's so hard out there with dating where, like, they're just finding therapists being like, I need help with this. Not a bad idea. It's interesting, but...

I'm just like I'm gonna pay for my breakup that's like where my mind went but I'm also like I think that makes sense it sounds like something you could have done though she's so avoidant she would like stay it is very avoidant so sounds like something Mathilde could have used so we play a game fun um it's called you haul or you ghost so they're perfect in every way except for this one

work they're an escape room enthusiast like they go weekly to practice ghost ghost scary have you ever done one no of course not they're really fun oh my god I actually love them really yeah I do I okay well I will say like the only time I do an escape room is when I'm like back home in Texas and don't have anything else to do and so maybe my siblings will go but we're actually really good at

them really okay maybe that's extreme but I I just am like if that is like the thing that you're so passionate about there's something scary about that okay that's fair like I'm like are you looking at the exit signs when we go and you yeah I don't I'm just like ghost okay what about as soon as you are like official you're dating she adds you to a group chat with her family

And she gets upset if you're not responding. It's popping off. It's ding, ding, ding. I think that's sweet. I love like meeting the people I have dating parents. Like I think it's like so sweet and it's not like, that's not scary for me at all. To me, it's like a sign of love. Okay. I love this. So you haul, I guess. Will you tell people where they can find you? Yes.

Willa H. Bennett, Cosmopolitan, subscribe. Thank you again for being here. Oh my God. Thank you for having me. Of course. That's a wrap. Thank you all for listening to today's episode. As always, help us spread the gay agenda by writing an Apple review, rating us on Spotify, and sharing with everyone you've ever met.

And if you haven't yet, join our subscription community, Made It In, for exclusive Made It Out media shows, content, and chat rooms at madeitout.supercast.com. Made It Out is produced by Matilda Jordan and worked on solely by lesbians. I'm a lesbian who is caught up in the web. I just live here now.

And then I was like, Oh, I'm like really queer. I really need to take this seriously. And, um, That was kind of the beginning of me exploring it more officially, maybe is a better word. Yeah. But yeah, it's definitely a process and it takes time. And I think there's a lot of like acceptance you have to do, not just of yourself, but like of things not being linear and confusing. And yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So Sarah Lawrence. Yes. I have to tell you, I didn't go to college.

I didn't know that. No, I didn't go. I kind of got right into real estate and just started working. But I feel like if I would have known about a college like Sarah Lawrence, I would have been really swayed. So can you tell me about the culture and what's different there just for people who don't really know? Yeah, it's a small liberal arts school, 25 minutes outside the city.

It's like off the Metro North. It's really easy to get to. I had gotten a dance scholarship there. And so I was like, okay, I guess I'm going. And I was very excited and I like got excited about it. And I got there and basically it was like so queer. It was the type of thing where it was like,

you were assumed to be queer before you were straight, which I think also accelerated my own process because I was like, Oh, I've like made out with all these girls, but I had a boyfriend, like I'm not queer. And then there I was like, wait, we can actually take this seriously. And, um, I mean like everyone around me was like non-binary and trans and, um, you know,

also just so able to articulate who they were in a way that I, I just hadn't grown up with. Yeah. I mean, it's also different now. I do feel like growing up, there is more out there, but really like it was just Tumblr and that's kind of it. I don't know. Like where did, where did you, I grew up in Texas, Texas. Yeah. So it's impossible. Yeah. It was, but did that feel overwhelming to you?

It definitely did. And like, I remember the first couple like crushes I had, I was like, I feel like I'm 14 again. Like, and that's a, that's real. It's called second adolescence. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure everyone listening knows that. But it's basically when you come out and you start, you know, really like taking your queerness seriously and you have a first queer dynamic, you actually do.

It feels like you're falling in love for the first time and it's so all consuming and you feel like you're going through a literal second adolescence. And I definitely felt that way. I remember my first like real, I guess, girlfriend or real situationship, I guess you'd call it now with a woman was like crazy. Like I was like, oh, my God, I've never had a crush before. Yeah.

And as you know, that's because I had a guest kind of call me out on how I needed to get off of my parents' cell phone plan. And I really gave that some thought, but I have to be honest, I'm not going to do that. Matilda and I did need a new phone line for Made It Out.

And that's wild because I was also like 22, you know, so it's confusing. So I want to know how you got from dancing to creative writing. Yeah, I got injured, which sometimes I do think rejection is protection. That's a very serious answer. And then I got injured, my patella. The recovery was just like... basically. Like it was just like, you can't dance anymore.

And I graduated from college and literally never danced again. I like finished my courses so I could finish my scholarship. And I wanted to work in magazines and I was like, okay, if I'm not going to dance, like I want to work in magazines. And how did you know that? I don't know. Those were like my two interests that were kind of like going back and forth.

Like I basically begged Sarah Lawrence to let me take journalism classes because I didn't like officially get into the program. And my senior thesis honestly kind of changed it. I went to a middle school for a month and talked to teens about how they were reading magazines and I wrote my paper on it. I was like, You know, magazines are changing. There still is a need for them.

We just have to figure out how to leverage social to get it to teenagers and future-proof the industry. And that kind of changed it all, honestly. When I picture these magazines... Yes. I picture them like when I was young, like how they were very, how to please your man. And like, you know, that they're pretty hetero. Yeah. And so it's also just kind of interesting to me that you so queer. Me?

That's great. Look at this outfit. I'm literally straight. I know. My studded belt, my carabiner. I'm pandering. Yeah. I'm literally queerbaiting right now. It's interesting that you'd be like, that's the space that I want to be in. So tell me that headspace. There's power in that.

Like, truly, I think like, you know, I've thought a lot about this through my career because I've worked places like GQ and I've worked place, I've written for places like Teen Vogue and like, There is definitely something to be said.

Like I remember when I would like write a piece about wearing suits for GQ, like it would just resonate with people and like really help people that weren't exposed to that type of content. I think there's a power of Cosmo having a queer leader because it's just opening it up to more conversations and bringing more people in. And it's exciting to me. I think it's definitely new.

So of course we went to Mint Mobile because these other companies charge an arm and a leg and Mint Mobile has plans that start at $15 per month. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash made. That's mintmobile.com slash made. Upfront payment of $45 for a three-month, five-gigabyte plan is required, and that's equivalent to $15 per month.

I mean, I can't say that probably every single person who's reading Cosmo is like loving how queer it is, but I think it's important, especially right now. And I think it's relatable. Also, I think a lot of people are questioning their sexuality right now and there's less and less space for us right now, literally statistically. So I don't know. I cannot be myself is the short answer. Of course.

Yeah. When you first got into the industry, did you see a lot of pushback? Honestly, no. I think it's just different. I think the types of stories I'm publishing are definitely different. We're doing a big feature right now on the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation and the SEO around that. So many people are searching that right now.

I don't know if it's just a reaction to Trump's executive orders or if... there was just like a pop culture moment, but it's so interesting. It's so in the zeitgeist right now. I feel like people are really struggling to decipher them and distinguish them. And, um, it's so interesting. It feels like 2017 again in that way.

Um, so yeah, we're doing a big, really helpful feature with GLAAD right now on like, yes, they're different terms. This is how you define them. And, you know, we're really providing our audience with resources. But that is something I'm seeing right now that is surprising.

I feel like, again, like I feel like we saw a lot of discourse around gender and sexuality being different in 2017, but it's like past. I'm curious to hear just your opinion and thoughts and like experience with it, considering you grew up and went to college in an environment that was so open with gender and sexuality.

So I feel like you probably have a much different lens than most of the country. Yeah, that's interesting. I think it's all spectrum and like, it's okay to change your mind and like have thoughts and second guesses. And I think that's like the biggest thing I think I wish I knew in high school. Like it's okay. Like you don't have to like stick to a label forever.

It feels so simple, but I think that's really missing right now. And I think Trump is making young people so scared to second guess who they are, like changes their mind and making it such like a, a static thing. And that's the biggest thing I want for young people is just to be nice to themselves. And, you know, it's okay to change your mind about who you are.

And I think that love is so complicated inherently. It's like you are drawn to someone for so many different types of reasons. And I think you should be able to explore that. And, um, I think that's okay to change and like what you're looking for in a partner can change. And I think again, like it's just such a deep personal thing that,

I think labels, labels are hard, but I think it's important that you learn about labels and have something to bounce back and forth between. And so that's why for Cosmo, I'm like, we should always define labels, but also give people the space to jump around and change their mind.

And, um, yeah, I always just tell people like, listen to your body, like your body knows, and you should break up with someone your body knows. And you're like attracted to someone your body knows, like there's so much instinctual about identity. And I think the biggest thing you can do is just listen to yourself. Y'all have been hearing me come on here and talk about phone plans for weeks.

And as you know, that's because I had a guest come and tell me that I need to get off my parents' cell phone plan. And I'll be really honest. I gave it a lot of thought, but... I'm not going to do that. My dad said that he will pay my bill until I'm married. And in this economy, that is what we are doing. But Matilda and I did need a new phone line for Made It Out.

And the first company we thought of was Mint Mobile because these other companies are charging an arm and a leg. But Mint Mobile literally has plans that start at $15 per month. And and that is for high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and they're all delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash made. That's mintmobile.com slash made.

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Upfront payment of $45 for three-month five-gigabyte plan required, and that is equivalent to $15 per month. New customer offer for first three months only, and then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees are extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

You're so right. I feel like you seem like the kind of person, though, that's always had that, like, tether to... That's nice. I was like, what do you want to say? What do you want to say? What do you want to say?

imagine i'm like wow you say something just like outlandish and horrible i was like no no no you just seem like you've always known what you want and you've been really tied to those instincts do you feel do you feel that way I think so. I think it also comes from dance, if I'm being honest, like you have to be so in touch with your body to a degree.

We actually have this piece coming out that I was reading last night. It's like, is your body rejecting your romantic relationship? And it's basically about like the signs that women often feel right before a breakup. And I thought that was so interesting. And I was actually thinking about my first like, you know, real romance with a woman in college.

And I was like, I remember my body feeling so crazy every time we hung out. Like it was like so overwhelming to a degree that I was like, wait, am I sick? Yeah. And and I think with coming out, too, it's like, you know, if you're like dating, if you're like in a relationship and you're like, this isn't right. And I did feel that way about my my boyfriend in high school.

I was like, something's like not fulfilling me and I don't think it's his fault. So, yeah. What do you think of that? I was super disconnected from body for most of my life. I think I had a lot of, like, eating disorder stuff and just, you know, I didn't love my body. And I don't think I was following my instincts, which made that, like, separation even worse.

What were you doing there?

Yeah?

I see that for you. I'm like, you can't do subway takes outside of New York, so you're kind of stuck here, huh?

Yeah.

New York.

New York. Got it.

Yeah. No, you can't do that. That pays the bills now, huh?

Yeah. Now you can go on vacation.

You're so cheap. What's the, what's like one thing you've bought since the show blew up?

Wow. That's cool. I feel like you have nice clothes. I see you out and about.

Oh, that's cool.

Is that regular guy stuff?

It's nice. Whenever guys ask me where to shop, I'm always like, can we just get you some nice Dickies? I'm always like, let's start there. It doesn't need to be J.Crew. It really doesn't. I love J.Crew, but it's actually really easy to look nice.

Not necessarily nice, but I think a lot of people look really good in Dickies. I think they're really simple and look good.

maybe that's a maybe that's my next subway takes that's a good take that dickies are flattering pants they are i love they are are you wearing dickies today no but i wear them often i one of like the one of my faves are i have these like hot pink dickies so cool did you get them on amazon.com No, my little sister got them for me, actually.

My 16-year-old sister, she was like, you wear Dickies all the time. You won't be able to find these. And I still don't really know how she got them. It probably was eBay, if I'm being honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anything is a dating app.

Spotify, Venmo.

Anywhere that you can message and engage with someone.

Anyone that has their Venmo public is asking to be flirted with.

Anything. I mean, Reddit threads, New York Times crossword.

This is a dating app?

I think Partyful is actually a really great one. Think about it. Like if somebody sent you a Partyful and it was like date tonight, so cool.

It's definitely a dating app. And also Instagram comments.

I honestly think anywhere you could connect with someone is a dating app. You don't need the traditional apps anymore. You just need to go about your life, find people that you actually connect with.

My take isn't that you should hit people up on platforms. My take is beyond the traditional dating apps, you actually can meet someone anywhere. You can find love anywhere.

Earth is a dating app. But Subway Takes is a dating app. Anyone on this subway could be a match for you.

Subway Takes is a dating app.

It's a dating app.

Yeah, definitely. I think eBay is like, yeah, I think what maybe got lost with the take my take on my take. Is that what you call it?

It's not that dating apps aren't helpful or successful. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying I think increasingly you can find love everywhere. And because we're so hyper-connected all the time, it's never been easier to meet people and flirt with people. And I think that was more my take. My take was not dating apps suck. I actually can be a proponent of dating apps.

I think dating apps are great. And I think it's really opened up. ways to really articulate what you're looking for in a hyper-specific way that maybe wasn't there before. But yeah, I think anything can be a dating app. I think it's true. I think you can meet people on Instagram, you can meet people on LinkedIn, you can meet people on Venmo. Those are like the three places I named on the show.

But you are the one that changed your mind.

Not necessarily. I see where you're going, but I don't think it's like that as much. What? How? I just think that what I've seen and heard from Cosmopolitan readers is that there is something to be said about meeting people in real life. Blind dates are on the rise. Obviously, there was a year ago that the run club thing was huge.

And I think there is like a craving to meet people in real life and kind of just like wander into a coffee shop that then you're sitting next to someone who starts talking to you and asks for your number. Like we are seeing statistically a rise in people meeting in that way. And so I think what that means to me is like, you know, any place you can connect to people, you can also find love.

And I think that is similar to friendship in the way that you're describing maybe. Um, but yeah, I have friends that I've met, like they're all different types of things, types of, um, interactions. And I think it is cool when things are genuinely a community. I think like that's such a buzzword, but I think it is actually is interesting.

It's like, yeah, people will meet at a Cosmo party because they both like Cosmo. And so they share some sort of similarities. Yeah. But that's why subway takes could definitely be a dating app.

No, it was really not cute. I was kind of scared, but it's okay.

That's interesting. No, nothing like that happened. It was just a lot of Instagram DMs and I got a couple LinkedIn messages.

Someone looked me up on Venmo.

But it was not what I meant.

No.

Hey, that's so cool. That sounds interesting.

That's fun.

What? Really?

Wow, that's so fun. What a fun night. I just saw this TikTok this week. This senior from Georgetown is starting this dating app. And she's literally still at Georgetown. This is her true passion project. And basically, it's a new app that she's launching. And it syncs to your contacts and then syncs to other people in the apps, like contacts that don't have each other. So it's all mutual friends.

And I think that's so smart because think about it like, They're in your pool, but you wouldn't necessarily meet them. I just damned her being like, we should get coffee because I think it's really interesting.

I don't know if it's a different one.

That's so scary. Yeah, I don't know how I feel about that one. But do you remember Yik Yak?

Yeah, because like basically it was really big when I was in college. It's like people around you. It's basically like anonymous Twitter, but it's like only people around you. It's not a dating app. But I went to Sarah Lawrence and like. It was a dating app.

everyone would like be like on yik yak like hey like girl with the tie like here like i have a crush on you like we go out with me and like people would like respond and that was that was really big at sarah lawrence it was like it had its moment um obviously got weird and shut down of course oh so yik yak no longer operates in the united states was like a old thing but what about chat roulette remember that

I never had a chat roulette phase, but my little sister did, and I remember her talking about it.

So scary. They can't do anything to you. But unfortunately, like I was on LiveJournal and very into it growing up. And I would definitely like make friends on LiveJournal and meet up with them. And like nothing crazy ever happened to me, which is honestly a miracle.

Willa Ballerina.

Yeah. And I would write about my life. And I had friends on there.

Yeah, of course.

That's interesting. Yeah, no, I'm definitely emo for sure.

No, but I'm definitely just like...

Like Avril Lavigne.

Something funny that happened to me this weekend, though, is I was walking to meet a friend and a NYU student walked up to me. And I know she went to NYU because she ended up telling me. And she was like, Kazzy David, is that you? And she took a selfie with me. And then I got to meet my friend. I told Kazzy about it because we like laugh that we always get like people. But I wait.

So I go to meet my friend and I'm like, you know, I like tell him the story. And he like thought that was so funny. But he was like. you're like a sadder version of Kazzy. And I was like, really?

I wanted your take on this. What's your subway take on this?

I'm like, that's so sweet. Thank you. I would absolutely love to be called Cassie David. I think she's so cool.

Yeah, totally. I think it would be interesting to hear what takes you don't air.

No, like, the, like, second choice. Because, like, I had a couple, and I picked that one.

I do not remember. Um... I don't remember, honestly, but I could definitely... Some of them, I ran them by a couple people at work and people were like, that's not funny. So I was like, okay, fine. Fuck me, I guess.

No, not at all. I just actually wanted to say something. And I wanted to be dating related because of Cosmo and... Oh, do you know what my other one was? I just remembered. It was that everyone should have five crushes at all times.

That's so difficult. That's too hard. It takes the pressure off one crush. But you're right. You know why it wouldn't have been a good Subway take? Because one, I don't really believe it that much. And secondly, it's too hard to explain, right?

True.

I'm the youngest ever, ever. No, I'm kidding. I think factually I am, but I've been doing it for seven months. Yes, but I have been there for seven months, so it's not that new. It's cool. I actually started on my 30th birthday, which was such a special time in my life. It really felt like a new chapter. Yeah, it's amazing, honestly.

I've had two covers out, Brenda and Mac, and then also Dochi most recently. It's been amazing. I'm working on a fall issue, so that's cool. There's four?

Yes, it's a quarterly magazine, and then Seventeen magazine has four a year. But then on top of that, you know, obviously social, video, events, marketing, all of that. So I feel like my priority when I came in was to really look at how we showed up on social and in the fashion space. So that was, like, the beginning. And now, yeah, I'm, like, honestly so proud of the Dochi cover.

I feel like that was... Something I held close to my chest for a really long time. But now that it's out, it's so crazy.

Hmm. Hmm.

Give me your pitch.

Yeah, give me your pitch. Why are you? Because I'm sick.

That's not a Cosmo cover, unfortunately.

Honestly, every story is different. I think Madison Beer, for example, we did a digital cover with her, and that was a story that I really sought out, and I was really passionate about us telling in the specific Cosmo way, and we went out to her, but... Dochi. It was, like, a mix between us going out to her. It's always a conversation, but every talent's obviously different.

I mean, every talent, like, has different people around them. Some people have a manager, some people have an agent, some people have, like, all three. Some people, like, you're emailing them directly. It's different for everyone, but I always look at, like, the story we want to tell and what we're trying to say and

um i think it means something to be on the cover of cosmo and there's only so many print issues so so maybe maybe you can help me craft a pitch for myself yeah why now is what i'd say first and then i'd say that's great okay why that's great no why now that that's a good that's the pitch why now tell me yeah no that is the pitch um

Yeah. Or like, what do you have to say about love and relationships?

Really? Yeah. See, that's the Cosmo pitch.

Lots of people say no. It's pretty common.

Okay.

Oh, really? That's your take? I don't... That's your take?

Okay, but here... You're coming at this from the assumption of, like, people only date to get married, which is not true, I would say. So I think lots of people, like, will say no, but then they'll stay together or, you know, they'll have something they can't work through.

We just published something, actually, in Cosmo UK, where it's, like, there's a rise in couples therapy where, like, one partner of the duo will, like, go to therapy and, like, tell the therapist... to help them do the breakup. And it'll be like a month-long process. That's nice. I'm like, that sounds expensive.

Oh, really? And you just go in it with... I just need backup.

Well, this article was basically about in the UK how there is an uptick of people being like, let's go to couples therapy. But it's really with the intention of breaking up.

No, it's like one. And then being like, I need your support in this. Because a lot of times in couples therapy, both parties will see the couple therapist separately, but then also together. That to me, there does feel like... I feel like what you're saying is sometimes you just need validation.

I think this is a little different because this is actually helping them through it and understanding it and being in the dynamic with them.

What's here?

Okay, I'll find some.

I think that like you don't have to be in a relationship with the intention of marriage, though.

And I think it's like totally fine if two people are like we want to live together and like share a life together. But maybe being engaged right now isn't the best option. I mean, we should delay it or I don't know. I think.

Oh, what's that?

No, it's like, I don't know what that means.

No, the three months rule is like how you feel about your situation after three months because that's when things start to actually get real and you start to have real convo and you start negotiating. So there's a trend where these people will be like, we didn't pass this three month rule. Yeah.

But I think it looks different now. I think that, you know, every dynamic is different. And like, you know, I've, I've been with people where like, you know, you talk about it really soon. And then I've also been with people that like, we don't talk about it for months. And like, I think it just depends on what the dynamic is. But yeah, I say we, we see patterns at Cosmo where like,

What was the first moment when you were aware that your relationship was not casual, though?

No, not doomed. But just like, you're like, shit, I can't just like... I mean, it was early.

Wow. Yeah.

All around.

Yeah, that makes sense. I think, look, it's different for everyone. I was talking to someone this weekend and she was telling me this. She was like, isn't it so weird when couples wait a really long time to date if the buildup is so long and someone's not sure? She was like, isn't that a big red flag? And I was like, wow, I've never thought of it that way. No, but it makes you think. Yeah.

I don't want to be with someone that's like, I don't know if I actually want to date you.

Thank you, Dale.

Shout out Dale.

Me or Dale?

Oh, me. Zero. I've never been. No one's ever asked me to marry them.

Really? Bill's character?

Yeah, my little sister is like... She has the humor that's just so brutal. And the other day she texted me. She goes, I can't believe you're 30 and not married. She's like, everyone's lost. And I was like, so true, Finley.

No, it's so true. It's like, what the heck?

I think eventually, yeah, of course. I definitely want to be married. But I'm also not in a rush. My parents met later in life and... My mom had me when she was older. So I think I'm very naturally drawn to that where I'm like, it will happen and just not yet. But I don't know. I do think a lot of my peers are engaged and their parents were younger when they were engaged.

So I do think there is something about that that I've just been thinking about recently.

Where were you when your parents had you?

What? I'm always like, you got to be honest.

Oh my God, that is traumatizing.

Wow. That's something I am... I do think you should not lie when you're dating. Of course not. No, some people are of the camp that's like, Like my friend went on a date with this guy last weekend and was like telling me that like she had had some alcohol and he asked and she said no, but she actually had had alcohol. He's not sober, but it was definitely a lie.

And I was like, you should just be honest next time. Or you should, like, text him being like, by the way, I did have, like, whatever. And she was like, dating, lying's okay in dating. Like, I don't owe him anything. And I was like, I hear you, but, like, I think I don't personally agree with that. I'm just, like, be honest. Like, honest to a fault, you know?

Yeah, and I think, like, there's no, I think that you should, like, be extra yourself at the beginning, even if it's like kind of silly. I think so too.

Yeah. Because I'm also like, if you're going to actually like grow, you want this person to like see who you are. It's like, why wait six months for them to be like, actually you suck.

Yeah.

No, this is, this is like always me. I love hearing about people's relationships.

Yeah. And I, my mom was a therapist, so that also comes from it. But no, I'm very, I've always been like fascinated, like my single friends, like I'm obsessed with knowing about like their dating life and hearing about like how people's relationships differ and you know, my friends that are open relationships, like how that works.

Um, I've never been in an open relationship, but I am very fascinated by it. And I think hearing people talk about it is like quite fascinating. And then I think it's cool at Cosmo. Like our brainstorms are just like people talking about their dating lives these days.

It's not kosher.

You can go to office hours if you want, honestly.

Office hours is Wednesdays at 12, and sometimes I have guests come in, like a guest lecture, and basically it's like an all-staff meeting that I lead, and anything from ideas for Instagram series to having a guest speaker. But next week we have this author who's starred out as an editor, and she... ended up publishing three books. So she's coming in to talk about the editor to publishing pipeline.

You could come in to talk about takes you see that resonate and don't. You can come talk about being canceled on the internet.

You can talk about how much you love talking about your dating life with me.

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely... I call on people... No raising hands. It's very ideas driven. But sometimes we'll be like, there was an article that was published on Cosmo UK recently that was like, there was an uptick in divorce in the first year of marriage and what that means. And I was like, has anyone experienced this? And we talked for a long time and people share their experiences.

And I really like when people share their experiences in ideas meetings because I think it just makes us all closer.

do you call it the newsroom uh yeah no what what is the biggest ick that that you've encountered dating yeah um oof that's a really good question um okay this isn't an ick but this is something that like i've just found i'm not drawn to romantically is like when people are mean as a way to flirt i don't like that either

like there was, there was this girl I was on a date with like not too long ago and she was like, uh, whatever. Like she like owned like a clothing line or something. I honestly don't know. And she was like trying to flirt with me by being like, I hate Cosmo. Cosmo sucks. And I was like, all right, it's a wrap.

But, um, very uncool. Yeah. My, my, one of my friends went on a date and, a couple weeks ago, and she was on a date with this guy, and the food came, and he goes, camera eats first.

No, she was like, unfortunately, it's a wrap for me. But she stayed for two more hours. They finished the whole meal.

But I don't do meals for first dates. It's too much of a commitment. I do coffee, walk, drink. And then, yeah, that comes later. Because you've got to be able to talk, you know?

yes I love that especially if it's a first date yes I love that I love like let's get a drink and then I have dinner at whatever at 8 I love that I love a coffee date though like truly like I think it's fun and like yeah I think it's like cute and sweet I think during the day is good too because then there's no pressure to go home with each other yeah but there shouldn't be a pressure of that well I don't know about you but when I was dating people were pressuring me to go home all the time

Doesn't happen to me.

But that kind of falls into the category of mean by flirting, in my opinion. Where it's like, people make mean jokes thinking it's like... It's cute. And it never is cute to me. I'm always like, you're immature. Like...

I don't know. Anyway, they never saw each other again. But she stayed for the full movie. And they got dessert. And she was like, yeah, we've texted since. No problem. She's like, I'm just not attracted. It was an ick. And I was like, yeah, I don't know. I don't really stay friends with ex-flings or exes. I really don't. I don't keep in touch with them.

So I'm like, if this isn't romantic, I'm like... See you around.

It's never happened to me. I know it can be done. I do think that there is, to your earlier point, there is more overlap between friendship and romantic feelings. I don't know. I think there's more overlap. I think it's so rare that you'd be like, I really love you as a friend, but I don't know.

Sounds like someone on NDA. You're like, she was amazing. She was actually perfect. She did nothing wrong. It's my fault.

Yeah, definitely not. And it does take a certain type of coordination and skill and taste. The levels are different and it's not everyone can do it.

Interesting.

And then the kid's like, to his wife or husband or partner one day, being like, my dad used to make the best Pad Thai.

Cooking for my kid and then my kid being like, I love this.

That's amazing.

That's funny you say that, though, because I know I can be a really, really good cook. And recently I've been, like, really, like, being, like, I'm going to be, like, an incredible cook. It's, like, something recent that I've been, like, I want to get really into it. But it's all meal prep if you really think about it. I know.

It's all about preparing and planning, which, like, I'm, like, I got too much to do right now.

I don't have time for that. So I end up just, like, going a little Frankie's instead.

Yeah.

Okay, 100% disagree. Why is it that a man should not be commenting? I mean, we shouldn't be commenting on anyone's bodies.

Yeah.

I guess what I'm saying.

Yeah, I don't know about that. I just am like, let's stop commenting on people's bodies. Even in celebrity interviews or profiles, when you read them and someone's talking about the way they picked out their food, I think it's all inappropriate. I'm just like, that's private. That is personal. I don't know.

I don't know. It has to be really, really, really contextual.

a hundred percent agree it's kind of funny what maybe not i don't know where are you washing first i'm not answering that why not i wash obsessively shower though like i shower like three times a day sometimes do they have a shower at the cosmo offices no but i shower in the morning and i shower when i get home before i go out and then i'll shower before bed wow clean head

And if I don't go home between going out, then I'll just shower to get home. But no, I really am like, my bed needs to not have outside clothes.

I freestyle it.

Okay. You just wanted to talk about yourself.

100% disagree. The best things in life don't cost money.

100% disagree.

Yes, because the arts in general, sometimes it's not about that. You can learn things from the internet. As someone who learns lots of things from the internet all the time.

Same. I was like such an internet girl.

Probably. We probably flirted on MySpace.

Really?

We did.

What was your account? I was Willow Ballerina. Did you ever talk to me?

Cool.

What are the chemicals between us?

What?

Okay, here's something that someone was saying to me this weekend. She was talking about how Like when you're a young woman, you're like told, you're like, don't choose your career, choose your romantic relationships in like fairy tales, right? And she was saying like she's always felt the opposite where she's like never wanted to choose love and she's always wanted to choose her career.

What's your take on that?

Word.

I love it. No, that was amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think everyone is on their own timeline and there's no right way to do it.

I have not.

I don't know. He's famously bullied me online once.

Yeah. Why did he bully you? I did baby, you know, like the like 10 things list.

yeah the dream baby dream hate um he responded saying he responded saying what a boring take from someone i usually admire well that means that's a compliment i have gone to balthazar many times since and i still will yeah but he's that's that's not that's like a playful that's an that's i feel like he said that in jest Okay, well, this is what I'm saying. I can't take those kind of jokes.

I'm just like... Maybe I'll read the book if you want me to.

Okay, I'll read it and let you know.

Before or after the engagement?

Well, let me know because we have a vertical. Cosmo Bachelorettes. Let me know. We'd love to write about it.

Please. I would love that.

I can't wait to read it. I can't wait to review the pitch.

Aw.

Sounds very Cosmo. Perfect.

You know what you should do? You should buy our subscription right now. Let's take out your phone.

No, you're paying full price, King. You're not cutting corners.

I'm not giving you a discount. You were just on vacation.

Yeah, literally. Okay, thank you. You'll get a Cosmo hat.

I don't know. It depends on what color I think you deserve that day.

You don't know that.

Wait, buy it for your wife.

Sick.

I freaking hope so. I've never had anyone ask that.

Okay, cool.

Cool. I agree. How amazing is the, how amazing is Cosmopolitan? Like, come on.

Boys love Cosmo. It's true.

Save.

Drop the address reveal.

Is Zillow dating up?

Wow. Thank you. You're iconic for that.

I look forward to getting her email.

Yeah, I got you.

You're not comfortable wearing a crop top. You don't have to have one. What about a keychain, a lighter, a carabiner? Any of us interest you?

Oh yeah, stickers too.

And you started this episode by saying that you didn't buy nice things. So I have done my work today.

So freaking true.

No, I won't. Everyone needs Cosmos subscription. Dale, you're next. Kidding.

Willa H. Bennett. Instagram, Twitter, TikTok. I don't know. Hit me up. LinkedIn, Venmo. Kidding.

Thank you.

Can't wait.

And you're putting something out there. I'm sure you feel this way where you're like, I think this is clear, but you just never know. You just never know.

That's interesting. I, it wasn't about that. It was more like, it was so clear to me what I was trying to say, but I was like, will that translate? You just never know. Right. Um, and I wanted them to feel good about it. They never do press together. Um, This is really intimate. I mean, you're really you're really this is the first time they've ever done something like this.

So I wanted them to feel comfortable. I wanted it to do well. I wanted subscriptions to do. I wanted to do online. It obviously has surpassed all expectations, but you just never know, especially with the Internet. Sometimes I'm like, you do never know. Yeah.

It's a really hard time to be a young person on the internet. I really cannot say this enough.

Yeah. It, I guess for me, it's more just like so much feedback. I mean, right. Yeah. When I was a dancer, like I would do, I would, I would present my art and then it would be done. And people would like maybe say one or two comments. This, like everything I put out, every piece I write, I obviously think about it so deeply. And,

so in my head and then it's out there and it's like i'm reading everything from like good bad ugly people who like don't even know what they're looking at and um i think there's also you probably actually know this more than me like there's a point when anything goes viral like this did where then it just hits a different audience yeah yeah but i was lucky that most like this i feel like people got that it was celebrating their love and that's why i'm like very proud of that i also will say well congratulations thank you

Yeah, it's a really tough place, and I think it's – I have two teen sisters, and they, like, even talking to them, like, the things they have to navigate are just so drastically different than anything I did in high school. And I obviously was on Tumblr. I obviously was on LiveJournal. Yeah, I was – MySpace.

Tumblr's amazing. I want Tumblr to have a wild comeback. Can it? Let's do it.

It was something about Twilight. I was like the biggest Twilight fan. Like if you asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I would be like magazine editor, ballerina. I'm going to write the gay Twilight. Like obsessed with Twilight. So I think it was like, it was probably something about like team Bella, LOL, I'm gay. Like now it aged in a certain way.

But at the time I was like, I'm just really team Bella.

Wow.

I love that. I was too. But like something about Twilight like had a chokehold on me. And it kind of still does. Like I see merch. I'm always like buying it on Instagram. I'm like, stop doing that.

It was so ahead of its time.

Yeah, I love it. I mean, that was always like my dream. I was like, I'm going to write the gay Twilight. Bella's going to love Bella.

Yeah, one day. I think this storytelling to me is like so much, is just really impactful right now. And I, again, like going back to what we were saying earlier, like I do think young people need this right now and that's what's exciting me. But I would definitely write books, especially like, but it would be like Twilight is the thing.

It would be like almost like fanfic, fanfic, I think. Did you write fanfic?

As someone who's edited your writing before, you'd be great at fanfic. Thank you so much. Wow, Jake Shane fanfic. I love writing. You and Tucker. Oh, my God. I love Tucker.

Oh, yes, of course. Actually, this is fun. I just remembered this fun fact. I actually profiled him at GQ.

is he's the same we went to carbone actually and we went on like i've never talked about this before what a great question uh we went on a date at carbone and um it was it was amazing he's so funny like his humor it's like we spoke for like two and a half hours and i remember looking through the transcript being like what did we even talk about no because it's nothing but everything yeah i'm like that was so deep do you have a favorite piece you've ever written

Oh, that's a good question. My Billie Eilish profile is pretty special to me. I profiled Noah Beck pretty early and that felt special because no one was like writing about TikTok in that way.

And I felt like I was taking it seriously. So that was exciting. And you just had him on. He's really sweet. He's the sweetest. Yeah.

Yeah. I wrote this one profile on Cole Sprouse that also is really special to me. He like hadn't done press in a while and I like went to his house and we, am I allowed to talk about cigarettes on here? Yes. Okay. We like chain smoke cigarettes all day and I don't really smoke cigarettes, but there was like something with the piece. I was like, I'm living my writerly dream. Like this is awesome.

And we hung out for like three hours and like talked about everything. And I like when I can really hang out with someone. In this issue, I wrote two things. I wrote, I gave advice to questions about romance, which we'll do later with prescribe. Yes. It was really awesome. And I wrote a Gracie Abrams profile. That's also very special. Big fan, obviously.

It's special. Um, Eli Russell is this photographer, uh, that has been like obsessed with Gracie for a while. And, uh, it was fun. It was like a day in LA shot in the studio. Um, and I think, yeah, she's just so special and like should go person.

yeah that's awesome yeah like that's like pretty cool to me but like you're like we're basically dated we're basically dated but she um did you watch her were you able to watch her work in the studio no but i i profiled her at gq in i think it was 2020 and i profiled her i didn't profile her but she was in high snobiety um we did digital cover with her and then this is kind of like full circle

She's just real as hell, honestly. She's like so real. She's just a real friend. Like you could call her right now about a breakup. She would be the best person to talk to. You were actually one of the first people to text me. You were like, oh my God, I love Cosmo and I love you. It's so cool.

I'm really excited. And this is only in the beginning. And like, I really feel like so optimistic about it and excited.

Yeah.

Are you excited to go to work every day?

What are you... Yeah, okay. I am, like, the biggest Sex and City fan in the world. So I was actually thinking. I was like, what am I going to prescribe? Like, thinking on the way here. And I was like, every single thing that came to my mind was a Sex and City episode. Which is, like, probably not it. You need to have some variety.

I need to have a girl's face. I haven't.

No, I've seen it. I've seen it. I've just never had like a phase where I'm like, oh my God, girls.

A lot of people feel this way and I respect and love. I think Rachel Sennett's show will also have that effect.

It's going to be amazing. What am I watching right now? Suddenly I can't remember anything. I just watched Hacks for the first time actually.

I'm like 10 years late. I just watched it for the first time. Yeah. What else have I been watching?

Um, big traders fan.

That's actually really surprising.

It's, Basically amazing. Okay. Like it's basically nothing makes sense. The challenges like don't always work out. You're like, what am I watching? But then they're at the round table and they're like having the craziest negotiation of a lifetime and they think they caught the traitor and it's only been the traitor once.

So far. So like they've been wrong.

Yeah, you could definitely catch up. It's really easy viewing.

But I love it. I'm like, Thursday nights, traitors, like, love.

I know. I have to get into Housewives more. I've been following the Giggly Squad drama at Cosmo.

Just, like, who they are. You know, they're both two women in media, which I think is cool.

No, no drama. Just like... Sorry, I used that word way too late. You're like, what drama?

What else am I watching? It has to be something. What's on right now? Anyone know? Severance.

I haven't seen it.

I need to get better at watching Severance.

I feel like it'll make me, like, anxious a bit, no?

Enora. Turn to page something in there. There's an amazing... Is it called a centerfold? Do you know what that is?

Okay. A centerfold is basically like... It's exactly halfway through if that helps you at all. Okay. Perfect.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Wow. This is like the first time I've seen... Yeah. That's from Enora.

Isn't he so... He's so nice. How old is he?

22. Cosmo knows it all.

He was amazing. He was amazing. We did get in trouble because he... he like lit a cigarette inside the studio and that was obviously not allowed.

Like Dochi at the Grammys was incredible. Oh, it was really amazing. Like the outfit, like I was like blown away. Chapel sounded also amazing. Huge belly Stan. Um, but Dochi's performance was seriously amazing.

Yeah. I'm going on a red eye tonight. So I'm trying not to think about it, but yes.

No, that's so, that's so scary. I'm going on a red eye tonight and I like really don't love red eyes. Like I think they're really like, Really uncomfortable. What do you think about red eyes?

I need to hear. What is it?

Wow.

Yeah. The plane part is fine for me. But I like I guess tonight I'm going on a red eye back to back to school, back to work. And I land and go straight to work. And I think that's the part that like by 4 p.m. tomorrow, I will be like exhausted.

Coffee, chilling, listening to music. It definitely helps to like your job. But it's it's red eyes like it's like the 3 p.m. that always gets me.

Do you, are you good at touring?

Like traveling, touring, not like the actual act. I was like, are you good on tour?

Yeah, I definitely relate to that. Do you have that feeling where, like, after you put something out or after you do something, you're, like, so awake after? Yes. Like, always when I, like, put a story out or, like, I've been working on something and it's out there, like, when the issue came out, I was just, like, all day, like, very calm but, like, just, like, I'm not going to bed.

Totally. And you, like, actually care about it and you've thought really hard about it. And then you're just, like, okay, it's not mine anymore. It's yours. Cosmo for everyone. And it's really cool. When readers email me, like, it actually means the world to me.

All the time. And, like, someone stopped me on the street and was like, oh, like, I read this Cosmo article. And it, you know, made me think that, like, I should potentially break up with my boyfriend. And I didn't. And then I did. And I feel so much better now. Like, thank you. And I was like, well, I wasn't an editor yet. But, like, I love you for telling me that.

I just thought that was so, like, I really like that stuff is, like, why we do it.

That happens to you all the time. It's like – I like it when people tell me that I've made them feel better about their OCD.

What do you feel like most people don't get about OCD? School.

Yeah, I think the way you talk about it in your show is amazing. Thanks. And I know so many young people I feel so close to because of it. So it's really special, truly.

Oh, my God.

Ooh. Honestly, writing Billie Eilish. Really?

And I am such a fan of her work that... I was just like, I'm so obsessed with her work. Truly, it was just so hard to write about something I was so close to. And then every Ed Letter, for some reason, it never gets easier for me. Every single issue has an Ed Letter, an Edder's Letter. And this one was so hard.

I was like, there is so much I want to say to this audience and to introduce this new era. Yeah, I don't know. Billy was like more writer's block. This was more like nothing I do will ever say what I mean.

What about you?

Yeah.

Does a deadline help you?

Yeah, me too.

you know what the best pieces are thinking of what you were just saying about like you had started a piece and then it came out later. Like the pieces that are like in your subconscious or in your brain, like for years before you actually write them are always the best.

A hundred percent. That's like the Billy one. Like by the time I sat down to write it, I was like, Oh, I've been writing this my whole freaking life.

Yeah. Oh my God. Like 2017 teen Vogue, my shit. Like I was upset. I was like the OG Billy fan. Um, And she was my first cover at High Snob. But I feel like this actual album is my favorite, which is kind of a controversial take.

Yeah, but like every album of hers is so amazing. But I think it's a lot of older Billy Stans wouldn't say that as quickly. And I'm like, I just think it's so cohesive. It's so clear.

it's shorter but it's like it's all meant to go together and that's kind of like a good magazine not to bring it back but it's like this is like all about love like it's it's like an album in that way that it's like clear intentional um we thought really hard about the writers the contributors the pictures we chose the size of the images like i do think there is some similarity between those creative processes in that way right yeah i'm sure you feel that way about tour

That is so crazy.

It's just like you're yeah, you're kind of like making on the spot a lot of it, which I love.

But isn't it such a cool feeling? Like whenever someone stops me and talk about Cosmo, I'm like, it's so freaking cool that like we make something that people like have their own relationship with and their own like feelings about. And, you know, especially with your podcast, I feel like you have such loyal listeners.

And then someone will stop you and be like this moment on this one interview with Charlie XCX.

It's a really, yeah. I was saying before we turned the cameras on that I really loved your Charlie episode. And it was just, I just thought I like learned a lot about her.

So you interviewed her before hearing Brad at all?

Wow.

Yeah, I agree. I thought that interview, I guess I did hear it before I heard the full album. I guess I'm just putting that together now. I do feel like it really articulated what she was going for, and it was so clear, and I love when that happens.

Speaking of albums, yeah.

Ooh, all time. Yeah. I love driver's license. I know it's on an album. That's a song.

Yeah. Sour was, was huge for me. Truly huge. Like 10 out of 10. Um, I love most of Billy's pretty much all of them. I can't think of one I don't love. Um, I'm a big pop girly.

Yeah. Through and through, you know, something surprising like brat I appreciated, but I, I wasn't obsessed with. And I think that's crazy because I love all the pop girls. There was something about it that I did not relate to.

Yeah, I, like, love Charlie, and I think what she's done is incredible, by the way. Like, I'm such a fan of what she's done. There just, like, weren't songs that I was relating to, and I think maybe that speaks to, like, the Billie Olivia, like, Gracie, like, taste that I have. It's just, like, I like sad girl music.

Like, I'm not trying to, like, go to the gym and listen to Billie, you know? You go to the gym and listen to Charlie, but then it's, like, I don't know. Maybe I just don't go to the gym enough. I'm just, like, there weren't times in my life where Charlie was, like, fitting in seamlessly.

So nice. Wow.

Look at your outfit.

I think you're right. I think the remix ones, like I really did love, like the Japanese house remix was amazing. And I love the Japanese house, but, I think that's more my taste, like, what I actually listen to. But culturally, like, I very much appreciate everything Charli's done. And I've been a fan for so, like, I've known her forever, you know?

Like, she's been doing this for so long. She's been at it. Yeah. And, like, especially, like, in the queer scene. Like, I feel like I've seen her DJ parties, like, since I, like, came out.

You're wearing Miu Miu. Look at these Dior sneakers.

Yeah.

I love it.

Most gay straight person. Like, do you know what I mean?

That's gay math. You know, like, girl math, that's gay math. Wait, something that you put, like, put into my brain the other day. So you posted, you were like, Phoebe Bridgers, when's your new music coming out?

And I literally have not stopped thinking about it since. I think she... is one of the best artists of all time. I'm huge, huge, huge Phoebe. But when you put that into my brain, I was like, holy shit, I want that so badly.

She's a true artist.

Yeah. No, some of her lyrics are, like, truly amazing, and I think such an amazing, I mean, talk about writing, but you, like, I saw that on your Instagram story, and I was like, holy shit, I need this today. Today.

Do you remember the first time we met, actually?

yeah it's like how you like listen to phoebe songs and you're like wait am i heartbroken or in love but i'm crying like it applies to every single part of intimacy it's it's amazing special oh i love i could go on about her she no she's amazing we need more we need more music we need more music it's been five years since punisher it's been five years do you like doji

Yes. From afar.

I really like Grammy's performance.

I did not know that.

Do you remember that?

Three weeks? That's crazy.

I mean, the Tom Brown. Like, I was, like, I was also just, like, how did they do, like, how did my friends at Tom Brown, like, much love? How the heck did you get that many outfits there?

There were so many. I was, like, trying to count. And I was, like, someone has been truly, like, working so hard at Tom Brown.

Okay, you're really, you're really good. That was really impressive.

And I was, like, sending love. Like, it was so beautiful. So cinematic. It was so intentional. Like, I was blown away. And then also Chapel. I...

seriously die for her yeah like I know when my mom is texting me about someone like it means something wow my mom was like texting me about chapel at the Grammys or just she was like what where have I been her voice was so beautiful in that room and I think it's really hard to perform at the Grammys oh my god could not yeah could not even guess what that feels like but like

Chapel, yeah, she was a really amazing performer.

You were sitting across from me.

Okay, interesting. That sounds like there's a lot going on. I would say don't ghost because that doesn't solve anything. Always have a conversation, but I would turn that down.

Oh my God, that's so savage. Yeah, no judgment on age gap relationships, but yeah, I would.

Yeah, totally. But I just think like a conversation, turn it down, keep it moving.

What's the oldest person you've ever dated?

How is that?

All right, next question.

Yeah, I kind of agree. I have three sisters and like none of that would fly. However, I think you can have that. Like you could. You could be like, hey, I like this is happening. I'm feeling this and like let's be honest about it. So I don't know.

So true, Jake.

Life is literally so messy.

Really?

Can't wait.

I'm like, hey, Jake Shane recommended you to be on the cover of Cosmo. Wait, who would you put on the cover of Cosmo?

Anyone in the world. Dead, alive, fictional.

Wow. That's so thoughtful and sweet.

That's amazing. That's amazing.

So nice. No, we were like across from each other and we were like, wink, wink. Hey, hey, hey.

No worries.

Okay.

I know you did text me at 4 a.m. and I was like, you good. But then I was also up responding. So I was like, I'm not good.

Yeah.

It's not the biggest ick of 2025, I'll tell you that much. It's not the biggest ick.

Yeah, I mean, in 2025, that's not the biggest ick, to answer the question.

And I was like, you like pop music. And you were like, I love pop music. And then we walk out and literally everyone's screaming like, Jake Shane, Jake Shane.

In the hookup?

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think like, I don't know. Everyone has their stuff. It's okay. Yeah. Maybe that's very Cosmo of me, but I'm like, we accept all types of things that you need to do.

Yoga is good for the mind.

That's interesting. So enjoy the drink. It's more like intuitive eating or drinking.

That's smart it is. I really, I agree with that.

Wait.

I'm so sorry. He's pressing the rewind button. Okay.

Is that movie? It's like an English. Long distance. No.

No. I've never seen normal people.

I've got to see normal people. Okay, wait. The twin brother. Remind me of the story.

I don't know. I'm thinking like siblings. I'm only thinking of Little Women for some reason, which is not what this person should watch.

Oh, it's amazing.

It's incredible. So that's why I'm like, huh, it's not the right answer for this person. I don't know. Sex and the City is the answer to everything.

Yeah.

Oh, that's interesting.

Your first show.

Can I prescribe Earth Cafe or is that not allowed?

And I know because yesterday I went to be like, I want to go to Earth Cafe. The first thing that pops up is your, and I was like, I'm going to confront him about this.

Yeah, of course. But why? What is your what is it? Is that an ick for you? Speaking of icks. So like I. It's perfectly good, by the way.

Yeah, that's a big deal. I definitely think it's different in real life than what you see on Instagram. And there's very few things that are like that. But a fashion show, it is very surreal.

Oh, it's interesting.

Lots of places don't have french fries. Okay, but if you were on a date and somebody was like, let's go to Earth Cafe, would that be an immediate ick for you?

Okay, that's mature.

Do you believe in icks?

No, friends are everything. I'm very like, I love how much you love your friends. Yeah, I do. Yeah, I'm like still best friends with like all my friends from elementary school. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, we have a group chat. That's a green flag. Called Tappan. Tappan. Actually, one time I said the biggest red flag about someone is if they have different people at their birthday party every year.

Don't you agree?

And no one talks about it, but if you have different people at your birthday party every single year, scary.

Scary.

Oh, yes. Incredible movie, by the way. Yes.

do you how do you what is your experience like with them you're the you're the real expert I like trying to like like what Jake no no you were great I feel like you were like a fixture at the Tommy Hilfiger show you like people were loving you people were like you look great and you were like what's how do you like my outfit it was denim right

I would prescribe a Cosmo drink and also a subscription to Cosmopolitan.

Like, who is that?

Okay, I would prescribe Now and Then, the movie. Have you seen it?

It's like about a friend's group and they start off as elementary school and it's like how their lives change. Really special.

Troubled Pants, that's what I was going to say. I'm not kidding. That's what I was going to say. Oh, that was cute, girls.

Breakups are hard. Listen to Gracie Abrams, eat ice cream, watch a shit ton of movies, honestly. Start a new TV show. I would start The Traitors, honestly.

Like get into a series, like honestly.

Totally. I agree. Um,

Red. August. Incredible. I mean, she is really an amazing songwriter.

Like, truly.

The Archer's good. I did go to the Air Store.

Because anyone was wondering.

New Jersey?

Night one.

Yes, I got Getaway Car.

Yes, it was Maroon. You're right. August was the night after and I was like.

It was truly amazing what she accomplished. And like, I don't know, we are never getting back together. Like that song at the heiress tour was like healing. Like I was just like, I feel like I'm like 12 again.

You know what? Another song that was really good live was Wildest Dreams.

Like, it hits so hard.

There have been two shows that I've genuinely cried at. One, Bodhi in Paris. It was the first time she did a co-ed show. Emily Bodhi, she rented out this theater and it was about someone in her life that had passed away and I was so moved. I literally started tearing up and I was like, I think of fashion so differently. And then the second one was Dries Van Donen's final show.

It's amazing.

Wait, do you want to say what's behind you?

Wait, go to the Cosmo quiz.

Yes. This is crazy. No, but isn't it? It's like a historical piece of...

No. Print is, it's part of the whole ecosystem of Cosmo. It's not the only thing we do, but it's part of it. And I do think, I mean, especially like this. Oh, my God.

Amazing.

Yeah. Yeah.

But it's so cool. And I brought back the Cosmo Quiz and the new issue. So I was very inspired by like, you know, like we have Rihanna's, we have Taylor's, we have, it's great. We have Zendaya. Like it's so freaking cool.

Yeah. I mean, that's so, I'm dying to know. Oh my God.

Try it. Try it. Oh, my God. Do you have this fragrance?

Yeah, it's going to bring back old memories.

Isn't it crazy that smell can bring that back?

It's yours to keep forever. This whole issue.

Oh, my God. Silver Linings Playbook.

Basically, the Cosmo Quiz is like this iconic franchise. It's like you come, you do the Cosmo Quiz. And it was like my first day. I said to the staff, I was like, we're bringing this back.

No, this one, you can see Sholo from Cobra Kai did it. Uh-huh. Not out yet, so leaking it here on Jake Shade's podcast, but it's cool.

It's like fun questions.

Wow. Wow.

Wow. Love Zooey.

And sometimes I'm there and I'm like really not feeling it or I'm not feeling the emotional connection. But every once in a while, those two shows I think about like they actually do make me emotional.

If you could have anyone on your podcast ever in the entire world, who is it?

Oh, besides Taylor Swift.

I wonder if she'll do it. She'll do it.

She might. Like, she loves her fans.

Jennifer Lawrence.

It's amazing. It's a cool one.

I want Bella Swan making out with Edward Cullen. Again?

They both don't age.

I like still think that they're going to end up together. End game? Like I'm just like it's end game.

Brenda's talking about Clay Culkin like our end game. You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's all in there, baby. You got to read it, you know, check it out online. Follow Cosmo on Instagram. No, take your sweet, sweet time.

Uh, honestly, my journal, I like really will be like 20 minutes. This 20 minutes. This is what I'm doing. You know, I really like plan out my days to a T honestly, like you need to be journaling and you need to be like putting boundaries on things.

Yeah. And like, try not to go to sleep on your phone. Honestly, it's really not great for your brain.

But like, yeah, it's just it's not good for you creatively. I'm going to try. I mean, it was my New Year's resolution that I haven't done, but I really want to try to like sleep in my phone in the other room or something.

Wow, yeah. So I need help. I also need help with my phone. I really like, I really think I, I just have a strong pull.

Art, totally. Yeah, it's, like, it's not, I mean, we can get into this. I honestly wear the same thing every day. Like, truly have a uniform.

What's the longest you've been not on your phone? Your flight the other day.

Yeah, I relate to that. I feel like something that I hear from a lot of Cosmo readers are like, I am more connected than we've ever been online. But like, The loneliness is like something I hear constantly from readers. Like I answer questions on TikTok and I put them in the magazine and always loneliness. Loneliness, loneliness.

Yes. I have a uniform. But I really, like, appreciate the art of clothes. And I was a really serious dancer growing up. And there's something, like, theatrical about it.

I completely agree. And I also think that is another thing that excites me about Cosmo. It's like, if we can actually like bring people together and make people feel less alone, like we've done our jobs and your podcast, that too, right?

It's a really hard emotion. I agree. It really is. It's like, but you're on your phone. So you're like, I'm with 8 million people and I'm not alone.

Yeah.

Were you a theater kid?

Yes, John Baptiste performed. But also, the Oyster Bar was so freaking cool.

I knew that.

Love the boat one.

What's your dream fashion show to go to?

Yeah, Prada's amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So good. Wow, you're plugged in.

Incredible. It looks amazing on you.

Tell me if I'm wrong. You look amazing in Miu Miu.

He bought this last night because I was coming here.

You look amazing. I love it.

Manifest it. Manifest it.

Slay.

I think there's a way to do it though.

I'm like, I think I would be like, Hey, I want to like have a conversation about how I feel about your boyfriend. These are the things he does of why I don't like him. I don't like if it's anything to do with like how they treat your best friend. Oh my God. Immediate red flag. But I think it's a conversation. I think going in being like, I hate you is like that person is going to isolate you.

Totally.

Don't you think?

And then you lose your best friend too. No, it's like they're dating. This is a dynamic. You have to,

Yeah. You're a good performer. Like you can tell. And I feel like, yeah, I was a really serious dancer. And then eventually I got too injured and stopped and,

I agree. And you want to just make sure like you're still in your friend's ear and like helping them navigate it and see it for themselves rather than just being like no. Then it's like then you're just out of the equation.

I'm trying to think of like a, like a romance novel or something, but there surely is a episode that relates to this. No, definitely. Um, I feel like there's so many also rom-coms that are like the friend, but the friends are always right.

Shane's always right.

Oh, my God.

I had so much fun. I've literally just been hanging out with this guy.

Hey, Patrick.

I learned that you're so funny and nice and amazing. And yeah, I'm just so honored to be here. And you love fashion shows.

Oh, I love you. Thank you for having me, truly. Of course. Always, yeah. Write for us anytime.

went into writing but um you know I feel like sometimes when I'm watching a fashion show I really feel like I'm thinking about dance there's something so theatrical there's something so about like space and like the human body wearing clothes it's like messaging anyway we're getting very deep very quickly classic wait I love that I've never I've seriously never heard anyone speak about fashion that way oh that's so nice tell me about your day-to-day uniform

We love you. Tense up.

Yeah, I truly wear this like every single day. I have like a couple different iterations of it, but I love a tie, as you know.

Is that a video I sent you, Tucker?

Yeah, I love a tie. I love a suit. I was at the Grammys and I wore a bow tie. I felt very, very proper and nice. I think the biggest thing I've learned from working in fashion is like black tie. Actually, you can't wear a tie. Did you know that?

Yeah. You can't wear a tie. It's actually inappropriate.

You know, I have no idea. I've never thought to Google it actually.

Yeah.

Yeah. There was this joke at GQ that was, I am the last employee to wear ties.

really because no one else wore ties at GQ it was like me and it was yeah there was a big thing where I was like oh black tie event and I think that's how I learned the hard I think I wore something to a black tie event somebody was like girl don't do that and I was like sorry lesson learned but yeah I'll never make that mistake again it's like Grammy's like no I'm wearing a big bow tie and I'm like talking about my bow tie obsessively where where was your bow tie from

It was a YSL bow tie and a blazer. I was going back and forth if I should wear heels or not. And one of my friends that was also going, I was like, what do you think? And she was like, do not fucking wear heels. You're going to be miserable. And I got there.