William Happer

It was not people burning oil and coal, you know.

Right.

And so I think the best guess as to what it was is some slight difference in the way the sun was shining in those days because they do correlate with the carbon-14.

Absolutely.

And they don't correlate very well with CO2.

You can also estimate the past CO2 levels, and they don't correlate with ice ages.

Joe, let me add again to what Dick has said.

He correctly said that the current ice ages, which are quasi-periodic, really only began three million years or so ago.

And at first, they were oscillating a lot faster than today.

And that was approximately the time that the Isthmus of Panama closed.

So one of the suspicions is that when the Panama Isthmus closed and stopped the circulation of water from the Atlantic to the Pacific, that made a huge difference in the transport of heat in things like the Gulf Stream.

For example, the Gulf Stream would have been completely different if water could have flown into the Pacific instead of to North Europe.

And that was about the time that these fluctuating ice ages began.

But, you know, we've set back the serious study of climate, I think, by 50 years by this manic focus on CO2.

If your theory doesn't have CO2 in it, forget it.

You know, you won't get funding.

And so the true answer, I mean, to me, you know, there was a period 200 years ago when everyone thought that heat was phlogiston.

There was this magic subject, you know, nonexistent.

But everyone had to believe in phlogiston.

And it turned out it was nonsense.