American Alchemy with Jesse Michels
Eric Weinstein Confronts Government Scientist on UFOs
08 Mar 2026
Chapter 1: What is the background of Eric Davis in UFO science?
So you're going to create a wormhole on demand? You should be able to. That's what my research showed. So walk me through, how do I get to Alpha Centauri by engineering a traversable wormhole? What you're going to create. Eric Davis, you are kind of synonymous with UFO science. You have an amazing background at Aerospace Corporation, Earth Tech. You've worked with NASA Lewis.
Eric Weinstein, you are a math PhD from Harvard who has dared to present a theory of everything in physics. The alleged Roswell crash was real. There was a there there. It really happened. How is it possible that something this large that involves this many people has zero incontrovertible pieces of evidence? Do you dispute the existence of atomic weapons because you can't access it?
I can't access it. Oh, you can access it. I have no idea what we just did. It is a crash retrieval, non-human intelligence, non-human technology. How many of those crash retrieval program people have you met? I think it's five total. There's no physics in it. It doesn't make any sense. Say again? It defies the laws of physics. We haven't made progress. We have no physicists.
How are they doing on this project decades in? This thing is not a Manhattan Project, and you know what the Manhattan Project would. Not one of these proposals excites me. They're boring as sin. I don't like GR. Why are you not tweaking it? I don't have intuition on how I could tweak it. Are there propulsion modalities that you're high conviction in that transcend chemical combustion?
Yeah, it goes way beyond even advanced. Are you aware of reports that we are being... Monitored? ...made to know that we do not control our space? Yes. When you see smoke at this level, the question is, what is the nature of the fire? That's right. There are different fires. But there is a fire. Or there's a smoke machine. Or there's a smoke machine. Right, right.
Epstein was running many different programs. It wasn't even Epstein probably running. Look, I believe we can leave. And if you believe you can leave, you have to imagine that you're being visited. Before we continue, I want to take a second to thank one of my favorite products in the world, Ketone IQ, for sponsoring today's episode.
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Chapter 2: What claims does Eric Davis make about the UFO crash retrieval program?
And that hangar turns out to be the equivalent back in those days of a special access program hangar. It's all secured. They've got guards around it. That's the end of the story. So this film was made of it. And this story has circulated at various times. The Defense Audiovisual Agency, under the command of two retired generals, I think Jerry Miller was the name of one of them.
I don't remember the name of the other. Jacques Vallee talks about them in his book Revelations, I think it is. And he and Alan Hynek
were invited to go to the dava and see that film get access to the film and see it so they got there and apparently they were not allowed to see that video because the one of those two generals said that they got intercepted or um uh somebody got in the middle of that and and convinced them not to allow Belay and Hynek to see that film.
You do have this fact pattern over decades of this sort of luring in of various UFO researchers and presentation of passage material, which is material that might have some truth in it, but it's also sprinkled with falsities so that the researchers can be discredited. So why now is there this line in the sand where we should trust
that there is this real ufo legacy crash retrieval program you know i'm kind of thinking maybe it all began with uh keller her nap and lakatsky's first book uh skinwalkers at the pentagon i think that started it off and then uh lakatsky did his first book and then out the second book last year and i think he's got a third one coming out and then lou elizondo's book came out
And so I think this is a crescendo of things that have come together in the right time, the right place, the right people. And that's why this is happening. And if you're Stratton and you're hosting, because he was the guy who ran the UAPTF, the UAP task force. That's right. But he also was working with Jim Licazzi on the OSAP. He was at DIA at the time. I don't know if you knew that.
I didn't know that. That's interesting. He and Lukowski are the ones that built the OSAP program together. So it wasn't just Jim Lukowski alone. It was Jim and Jay and their support staff. There's, you know, the DIA and contractor staff that supported them. So Jay was involved with the OSAP from the very beginning.
And then we talk about OSAP, AATIP, these sorts of programs that are, you know, very small dollar amounts, you know, vis-a-vis. $22 million. The inflation-adjusted Manhattan Project. Yeah, Harry Reid had an intention on turning it into a Manhattan Project. He was intent. This was like just to get it started.
And then the subsequent fiscal years that would follow, he was intending this to go like maybe a decade with worth a billion dollars, maybe two billion dollars worth of programmatic's. But you were simultaneously saying there is an underlying program that is a legacy reverse engineering program. Yeah, this came after the fact. We were trying to get into the crash retrieval program.
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Chapter 3: How do Eric Weinstein and Eric Davis view the evidence for UFOs?
Okay, well, I don't even know how to begin this. I mean, look, the first thing is that, in general, I can produce too many explanations through a creative, sometimes undisciplined mind for a certain set of facts.
And this is one of the only times, and perhaps the only time, I've ever seen a situation where I cannot come up with a single theory of what's going on that explains all of the bizarre behavior in UFO UAP land. Too many people who seem relatively reasonable with nearly eidetic memories talking about particular names, dates.
It is impossible to me that we have a theater company that has figured out how to create this space opera. And on the other hand, the lack of anything tangible I don't believe in something this old, this long, this many events that we have absolutely nothing to go on. So let me just say from the beginning that this is the odd situation.
One of the reasons nobody from my world wants to get involved with it is that It just makes you look foolish from the point of view of a scientist. Well, they can't get involved unless they're working on a contract. Then they get a clearance. Sky is a big place. I disagree. You said that you've... One of the top government scientists, I can't think of his name. You would know who it is.
Gosh, he was a physicist. And I just, Hal Puthoff knew him. And he had a lot of clearances into the Manhattan Project, the post-Manhattan Project, a lot of other high technology projects throughout areas of the DoD. And so he was an academician. And he had clearances.
A colleague of mine up at Baylor also has DOD classifications, and he's working on classified stuff that you're not familiar with, you've never heard of, you won't get access to it. If you have a contract that requires a clearance, you will get access to something you don't know about in the public domain. Okay. I understand that there's a lot of stuff that's classified.
We have an entire system of national labs. There's no question about it. I'm talking about like at the level of ground truth, right? Our two primary theories are the standard model and general relativity. Both of them are relevant here as limitations on what we can understand of the world we see. And if somebody has access to theories beyond those two,
and they predicate manufacturing on it, and then we get the gifts of that manufacturing, just assuming that that story is correct. We should be seeing some very weird stuff that is not explicable, as if Newton was looking at... And Lorenz contraction, I would say, what the heck is that? And, um, so I'm just going to begin with things that make me hugely uncomfortable.
And again, it's not as a dig or it's like, I just can't figure this out. So we toss off these humanoid aliens. like aliens that are tetrapods, literally tetrapod body plans. We have arachnids, we have insects, we have cephalopods. We have all sorts of intelligent life that doesn't follow a tetrapod body plan.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of extended electrodynamics in academia?
Yep. So that's the problem that needed to get solved. So we don't have anybody in academia that's pursuing extended electrodynamics? I don't know. No, we do.
Chapter 5: What are the controversies surrounding Bob Lazar's claims?
Um, there's a guy named Lee Hively, uh, in Colorado Springs, and he has a colleague named Woodside, who I believe is in Australia. And then there's another guy, I think, uh, Strobel or Lobel or something. So there, there are a couple of, there are a few of these guys and they've written a paper about extended electrodynamics. So another thing that really confuses me is I saw a bizarre, um,
video from 1991 which joe rogan pointed me to with this guy bob lazar seemingly talking nonsense yes do you recall what he says about the fact that you do this engineering with gravity wave a and gravity wave b
Chapter 6: How does the conversation address the role of physicists in UFO programs?
No, not entirely. It's been so long. He doesn't know what he's talking about because he was a radiation health monitor for Kimber Meyer Company. And they were a logistic service company servicing Los Alamos National Lab in Area 51. He never had security clearances.
Chapter 7: What are the potential connections between UFO phenomena and national security?
He never graduated. He dropped out of his first year of college, et cetera, et cetera. He's not a physicist. Well, I know that. Yeah. So I don't remember, but all I know is he claims element 115 created antimatter, which somehow had something to do with creating gravitational waves in the propulsion system. Did you hear the Jeffrey Epstein tape with Steve Bannon? No.
Jeffrey Epstein didn't know what he was talking about either. No, I'm not familiar. But you can tell that Jeffrey Epstein was talking to people who knew what they were talking about, and he's this garbled version of this. let's assume the same thing for Bob Lazar.
Let's assume that he was janitorial staff and that he just happened to be in a sensitive location and that he's saying something because it sounds to me like total garbage. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He says this thing, which is crazy. He says there's gravity wave a and gravity wave B and you most likely think of gravity as, as gravity wave B that's the long range stuff with stars and planets.
He says, but gravity wave A is different, and you associate it with the strong nuclear force. So, of course, I want to throw up in my mouth, right? And he says this thing about QCD, quantum chromodynamics of the strong nuclear force, is what gravity wave A is all about.
And so the idea is going to be that somehow, if you could actually understand that what was going on in QCD had to do with gravity, you would understand that that's the source of strength with the ability to actually do something with space and time. So it seems totally stupid, but let me just point out the following thing.
There are only two Lagrangians or actions that I know of that give an Euler-Lagrange equation with the curvature appearing without a derivative in front of it. One of them is the Einstein-Hilbert action, which when differentiated gives you the Ricci curvature minus the scalar curvature over two times the metric. The other one is a thing called the Chern-Simons function. Yeah, it's been here.
Chern-Simons action. Yeah. The Chern-Simons action comes from something called the transgression of the Pontryagin class in the Chern-Weh representation. Yeah. That is part of QCD. In other words... The normal Yang-Mills Lagrangian, we would represent as F inner product F, norm square of F, where F is the field string.
From the topology of, what is geometry and topology for physics, and I can't remember who the author of that book was, but I've seen that, though. But only in dimension four, you can form a different quantity where you take F inner product star F, where star is the Hodge star or complementarity operator.
And that thing generates the Pontryagin class, which when transgressed gives you the Chern-Simons, which gives you the Lagrangian that is closest to general relativity. Interesting. I haven't seen that. Well, because nobody's talked about it ever. So I think this is the first time I'm ever mentioning it in public. So the thought that I had is assume that Bob Lazar is an unreliable narrator.
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