Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
A listener production. Hi, I'm Hannah. And I'm Sarah.
Welcome to Big Talk.
Big Talk deep dives into the big news stories that you've heard of, but you don't know all the serious and salacious details about.
We revisit the most shocking headlines of the past that have shaped the world we know today. And in this episode, we're looking again at Scientology. Oh my. The people spoke. We listened. So many people spoke. We've never had so many people speak. This was probably the biggest piece of feedback we've ever got consistently.
Well, it did feel like such a cliffhanger. And we kind of knew it because when... And huge shout out to Grace at the top here, who's been doing the research.
Grace. God, Grace. We just love Grace.
Well, she was just like, we have to. We will only ever get to the origins of Scientology. To even tackle what we're about to tackle in this episode was always going to have to be more.
Also, it makes sense to just do a direct follow-on rather than wait six months and go, now we're returning, because then you've kind of forgotten what you just heard, but this way we've got this complete run-on. And if you're listening to part three and four going, what the hell happened in part one and two, you've got to go listen.
Go back and listen, but also we will do a bit of a recap because I guess we don't really have to do a pitch because you guys are all on board.
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Chapter 2: What controversial practices does Scientology use to control its members?
He knew that somebody needed to take the reins of the business side of Scientology. And so he had a plan. Step one, consolidate the business. Miscavige dismantled the Guardian's office, restructured the CMO, and absorbed the Sea Org into the Religious Technology Centre. So bit by bit, he centralised all the authority to fall under him, leaving him as the only person atop of this totem pole.
Not only that, but he also formalised Scientology's ethics and compliance systems, tightening behavioural monitoring across staff and standardising their punitive practices.
He was ready to lead with an iron fist. Step two, secure a tax-exempt status. Ooh, hot. For more than two decades, the IRS had refused to recognise Scientology as a non-profit organisation, so they obviously wouldn't give them tax-exempt status. Unsurprisingly, Scientology in response decided to do several things to try and combat the IRS.
So what they did was they hired private investigations to find material which they could use to blackmail IRS workers. They conducted surveillance operations on the IRS, again, trying to get blackmail material. They created a fake news bureau in Washington to gather information on church critics in in the IRS.
They filed more than 50 lawsuits against, you guessed it, the IRS, and financed an organization of IRS whistleblowers that attacked the agency publicly. So in his early years as leader of the church, Miscavige paid the IRS a visit and negotiated a deal. We'll cease all our suits against you in exchange for tax-exempt status. And after 20 years of fighting with Scientology, the IRS says yes.
This is what happens when people just have way too much money. Because he could have just kept going. And that's what happens. God, you see it in big corporations. You saw it when we did the big talk on the Catholic Church as well.
Like, if you are the big dog with enough money, you can bully... You just cause enough explosions, essentially, and you push so many people out of these places trying to do good work with rules and policies and frameworks in place. And you understand that, like, to stop the harm, you just have to bend. And it's so scary to watch. There's so many examples of this, as you said.
Yeah, and, like, the 20 years of fighting, to be fair. But, like, the fact that they are then tax-exempt and confirmed religion, that is the most, like... validating thing they could have got. But step three was to build out the business. So while Hubbard was a master of writing books that the business could sell, Miscavige took the business model a step further.
Here's a quote from a Times article on Scientology published in Miscavige's early years as leader. Are you having trouble moving swiftly up the bridge, that is, advancing up the stepladder of enlightenment? Then you could have your case reviewed for a mere $1,250 donation. Want to know why a thetan hangs on the physical universe?
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Chapter 3: What was Operation Snow White and how did it impact Scientology?
Firstly, the Fort Harrison Hotel, or FHH. So FHH was set up as this religious retreat with bedrooms, offices, restaurants, classrooms, a ballroom and more. Now, the goal of the building was and still is to deliver Scientology workshops, but no one really knows what happens in there. So throughout the 80s and 90s, the police receive numerous emergency calls every year coming from inside the hotel.
In one year alone, they receive over 150 calls. Time and time again, the authorities are denied entry, told that the calls are a mistake. If they are allowed in, they're not allowed to check the rooms where the calls have originated. In these years, multiple deaths occur inside this hotel. Like Josephus Havaneth, a Scientologist who was found dead in a hot tub in his room.
The bath water was so hot that it burned his skin off. Herebert Pfaff, a Scientologist who died of a seizure in the hotel. He had stopped taking his seizure medication as his leaders had put him on a vitamin regime instead. And Lisa McPherson, who we discussed in the last episode, the one who was held for 17 days without care and was delivered to the hospital deceased, covered in cockroach bites.
Fort Harrison Hotel isn't the only new wing that Miss Cabbage sets up. He also upgrades Gold Base, Scientology's new international headquarters.
Gold Base is across 500 acres. It's a sprawling mass of buildings in a heavily secured compound in California where the top levels of leadership, including David, are based. It houses administrative offices, production studios and accommodation for elite Sea Org members. It functions as the central hub for global decision, marketing, strategy and internal management within the church.
And inside that sprawling, heavily secured compound is The Hole. What's the hole? Again, noting this is alleged, but the hole is Scientology's new punitive area, likened by many to a prison. So it's a building where Scientologists were kept for months, two years, unable to leave. Whilst there, they are physically and mentally abused.
In some instances, they are kidnapped to be brought there, like Debbie Cook, an ex-Scientologist who testified that two members crawled through her office window and grabbed her in the night before bringing her to the hole. In his expose on Scientology, Lawrence Wright, a staffer at The New Yorker, had this to say about Scientologists living in Gold Base.
The entire base has become paralysed with anxiety about being thrown into the hole. People were desperately trying to police their thoughts, but it was difficult to keep secrets when staff members were constantly being security checked with e-meters. One of the reasons that we know so much about the hole is because of former Scientology top executive Mike Reinder.
If you remember him, he's the one that Denise, David's sister, used to audit, who was placed in the RPF. He was kept in the hole for two years, and he paints a very clear picture about its purpose. So often it's the higher level executive Scientologists who are taken to the hole. So they're the ones that have enough dirt on Scientology to truly hurt the religion if they were to leave.
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Chapter 4: What are the allegations surrounding the deaths linked to Scientology?
It's so... It's also like so interesting, like just taking this back to, you know, the first part of this story where we're talking about this idea of like it being kind of like a psychiatric practice where people like confess and like are alleviated and reach their higher self if they, you know. I think we both do.
Chapter 5: What shocking details about Scientology's 'The Hole' are revealed?
played that grab in the in the second one was john travolta talking about like wow it's just like a religion truly built on like self-improvement and love and peace and like tell me who else in the world it's it's fucking insane to compare this you name me another philosophy religion or technology where joy is the operative concept
The hole is also where the FBI's investigations around Scientology's involvement in human trafficking stem from.
So Mark and Claire Headley, two ex-Scientologists, sued the Church of Scientology for human trafficking after being sent to both the Rehabilitation Project Force and the hole. Jesus, poor things. Their claim was that they were coerced through deception into Scientology, forced into labor in the RPF, and that they were prevented from leaving when in the hole.
Their claim was just one of many that the FBI was investigating in relation to human trafficking and Scientology. Ultimately, the Headleys lost their case, which forced the FBI to abandon their other investigations.
It was deemed that because Scientology is legally recognised as a religion, the courts can't step in and judge how it treats its own members if those actions are tied to its religious beliefs. What the fuck? Insane. That's just like, you can get away with anything. The ruling effectively meant that it was impossible from then on to bring human trafficking charges against Scientology.
We're actually coming to the end of part three now, and there is still so much left to cover. But we're about to enter into the early 2000s when Scientology has more power than ever before, and when Miscavige's mobster-like ways are only increasing. So... Part four is out now, but with more deaths, a missing person, and some insane celebrity stories.
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