BiggerPockets Money Podcast

How to Access Retirement Funds Early Using the 72(t) Strategy

13 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of the BiggerPockets Money Podcast, hosts Mindy Jensen and Scott Trench sit down with John Bowens from Equity Trust. John is an expert...

Money with Katie: Breaking Free from the Middle-Class Money Trap

10 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Katie Gatti Tassin from "Money with Katie" escaped the middle-class wealth trap of endless working and spending by having her "financial awakening" ea...

4% Rule Creator Bill Bengen Reveals His NEW 5% Retirement Strategy

06 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The 4% rule just got a major update! Bill Bengen, the creator of the famous 4% withdrawal rule, returns to share his latest research that's changing r...

The Ultimate Guide to Asset Protection: LLCs, Insurance & Partnerships

03 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Do you really need an LLC for rentals? What kind of insurance should you get? With so many questions (and confusion) surrounding asset protection for ...

The “Set It and Forget It” Path to FIRE by Your 40s

30 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

If you invest consistently, reaching FIRE (financial independence, retire early) by your mid-40s is absolutely possible. These two financial-freedom-c...

Leaving His Job at 36 to Give Back, NOT Get Rich During FI

27 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

For many of us, FI (financial independence) isn’t just about having the biggest bank account. Growing wealth is one thing, but getting rich isn’t ...

If No One Follows the 4% Rule, What IS the Right Withdrawal Rate?

23 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Most people assume the “safe withdrawal rate” for retirement (or early retirement) is 4%. But, if that’s the case, why is it SO hard to find any...

No, Taxes Won’t Derail Your FIRE: Here’s What You’ll Really Pay in Retirement

20 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

No, Taxes Won’t Derail Your FIRE: Here’s What You’ll Really Pay in Retirement Podcast Description Taxes in retirement have been called a “si...

Scott Steps Down as CEO: A New Age for BiggerPockets Money

16 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

BiggerPockets’ CEO Scott Trench announces his decision to step down as CEO, and focus full-time efforts on personal finance content with BiggerPocke...

JL Collins: The “Simple” Path to Wealth, FIRE, and Stress-Free Investing

13 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The Simple Path to Wealth is arguably the most influential book in the FIRE movement. JL Collins, its author, is revered among early retirees as one o...

How to Create Huge Tax Savings Funding Your Kid’s College (& FIRE on Time!)

09 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Paying for college is one of the biggest financial hurdles families face—even as you’re chasing or approaching FIRE. What’s the smartest way to ...

I Retired Early in My 40s WITHOUT Withdrawing from My Portfolio! | Life After FIRE

07 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

You CAN retire early in just ten years IF you save and invest enough. Fortunately, your retirement expenses may be less than you think. Chris Luger, f...

The 4% “Rule” is Wrong for FIRE—Here’s a Better Alternative

06 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

For decades, the 4% rule has been the calculation every FIRE chaser has used to determine when they can retire early—risk-free. The math is simple: ...

How to Build (and Enjoy) Your “Dream” Life in Early Retirement | Life After FIRE

02 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

What if you reached financial independence…before knowing what it was? That’s what happened to Chris Rusin. After discovering the FIRE movement an...

The Single Biggest Risk That Could Stop Your Early Retirement (& How to Dodge It)

29 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

You’re part of the FIRE movement (financial independence, retire early) so you can quit your job, have complete time freedom, and truly enjoy your l...

We Paid Off $500K in Debt: Now We’re on Track to Retire (Early) in Our 50s

25 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Fear that early retirement is out of the question because you have too much debt? It’s not game over. Whether you’re debt-free or still chipping a...

Healthcare Hacks That Could Save You Thousands on the Journey to FIRE

22 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Wealth and health are closely intertwined, especially here in the US, where the high cost of healthcare can put significant financial pressure on fami...

The Financial Order of Operations for FIRE (Step-by-Step Early Retirement Plan)

18 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Most people chasing FIRE (financial independence, retire early) are doing it all out of order, and it’s costing them years of financial freedom. So,...

The “Silver Lining” for Investors After a Historic Week for Stocks| Life After FIRE

16 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

We’re coming off one of the wildest weeks in stock market history. How are retirees reacting to these massive swings? How should you adjust your FIR...

Early Retirement “Traps” That Delayed My FIRE by a Decade

15 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Early retirement in your 50s is a dream for most Americans, but today’s guest is sharing how she could have retired in her 40s, a decade earlier, if...

How to FIRE in Your 40s on a Teacher’s Salary (or Average Income) (Finance Friday)

11 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is it possible to reach FIRE by 45, even on a teacher’s salary or an average income? Today’s guest is proving that, yes, you can retire early, reg...

Tariffs Pause, Stocks Erupt, But the Volatility Could Be Far From Over

10 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Tariffs are now on PAUSE! And just like that, the stock market is flying back up again. Is this a signal for us all to breathe a sigh of relief, or is...

The #1 Thing That Made Our FIRE Grind Easier (and More Fun!) | Life After FIRE

10 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The path to FIRE (financial independence, retire early) isn’t easy. You’re working a lot, saving a lot, all while seeing many of your friends out ...

I FIREd with Index Funds, She FIREd with Rentals: Which is Better (& Faster)?

08 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

There’s no arguing that real estate and stocks are the two most proven ways to build wealth, but which one comes out on top in a race to FIRE? Stay ...

Teacher ($44K/Year Income) FIREs in 10 Years Making the RIGHT Sacrifices

04 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

You may not make six figures, but you want to achieve FIRE and retire early. You might be struggling to get by, let alone saving and investing to hit ...

FIRE at 50 by Creating “FI Paychecks” That Fund My Early Retirement! | Life After FIRE

02 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Would you delay your early retirement for years to feel safer and secure once you FIRE? That’s what Mark Trautman did, FIRE-ing before discovering t...

Barista FIRE at 36 with ONLY $500K by Trading “Stuff” for Substance

01 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Julie Rose “semi-retired” at just 36 years old with only $500K, trading her corporate job for sunrise safaris in Africa, beach walks in Bali, and ...

Can Your FIRE Portfolio Survive a Stock Market Crash?

28 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The stock market is shifting, and your portfolio needs to change NOW if you want to reach or stay FIRE (financial independence, retire early). Many ea...

When You Should (and Shouldn’t) Hire a Financial Advisor | Life After FIRE

26 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Could hiring a financial advisor help you reach financial independence and retire early? This isn’t a popular move in the FIRE community, but it gav...

Motley Fool’s Ricky Mulvey: Why I’m Buying MORE Stocks Despite Growing Recession Risk

25 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Are we headed right for a recession, or are stocks on sale? We don’t own a crystal ball, but Ricky Mulvey from The Motley Fool is capitalizing on th...

Is the 4% Rule Dead?

21 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is the 4% rule dead? Most FIRE-chasers are using this retirement rule completely wrong, and it could cost them their financial freedom. With stock pri...

Losing $150K, Starting Over, and STILL Retiring Early | Life After FIRE

19 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Think you’ve blown your chances of achieving FIRE? You haven’t! Just ask Nik Johnson, who spent years growing his nest egg, only to have it comple...

How to Stay Rich During FIRE by Dodging the 4 Financial “Horsemen”

18 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

You’ve worked so hard to finally achieve FIRE (financial independence, retire early); the last thing you want is your wealth to dwindle or disappear...

Can I Hit Financial Independence by 50 with THIS FI Number? (Finance Friday)

14 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is your FI number TOO high? Whether you are ultra-conservative with your finances or want a lavish retirement lifestyle, setting a high bar could make...

Ditch Corporate! Start Taking the “Slow” Path to Retirement w/Tae Kim | Life After FIRE

12 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The “death march to FI” isn’t for everyone. If you’re tired of climbing the corporate ladder or lacking a sense of purpose at your W2 job, it’...

How the Top 1% Invest (and How Do YOU Compare?)

11 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

How do the top 1% of Americans invest their money, and how do your investments compare? We’re breaking down the data, showing what the wealthiest Am...

Are You Headed for FIRE or the Middle-Class Trap? (Finance Friday)

07 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

If there’s an issue that keeps aspiring early retirees up at night, it’s the dreaded middle-class trap. At just 28 years old, this financially sav...

The Tax-Free Retirement Strategy 95% of Americans Don’t Know About

04 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

The wealthy are using one unique retirement account to build their fortunes tax-free. You may have never heard of it, but knowing about it can change ...

Scott and Virginia Trench Talk Goal Setting, Spending, Prenups, and Future Plans

28 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

How has Scott achieved so much financial success already in his early 30s? He’s got a secret weapon nobody else has: Virginia Trench! That’s right...

Teacher Retires Early at 45 Thanks to Strategic Living (FIRE in Paradise!)

25 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Teachers aren’t known for their high salaries, so how did this one reach early retirement and FIRE at just 45 years old? Through “aggressive” sa...

Finance Friday: Chasing FIRE by 35 WHILE Supporting Extra Family Members

21 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is something stopping your FIRE? Today’s guest wants to retire early at 35, but with a shaky budget, extra expenses, and a problematic rental proper...

CPA Shares Tax Tips to Lower Your 2024 (Yes, 2024) Taxes

18 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

2024 may be long gone, but it’s NOT too late to lower your taxes for the previous year. If you have real estate or retirement accounts, you already ...

Has the FIRE Formula Changed? Why 100% Index Funds Isn’t the Answer

14 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is a 100% index fund portfolio no longer the FIRE formula? The market has changed, and maybe your portfolio allocation needs to change with it. With i...

The Points Guy's Travel Hacking Tips to Fly for FREE in 2025

11 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Travel hacking allows you to fly and travel for free, often in luxury, without spending tens of thousands of dollars on flights or hotels. So, how do ...

The 4% Rule Naysayers Are Wrong (We Retired at 47 Using It!)

07 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Does the four-percent rule actually work? On paper, yes. So why don’t more people put it to the test? Today’s guest retired at forty-seven years o...

Sahil Bloom: The “X Factor” for Financial Freedom and Why FIRE Won’t Make You Happy

04 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Do we focus too much on just one type of wealth? What if the key to a happy life isn’t retiring early, ascending the corporate ladder, or having mor...

How to FIRE Faster with a Self-Directed IRA

31 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

How can you use your retirement accounts to reach FIRE faster? We’ve talked a lot about the “middle-class trap”—having too much of your net wo...

The Middle-Class Trap That Could Keep You from FIRE (How to Escape It)

28 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Buying a house, maxing out your 401(k), and leveraging real estate can help you achieve financial independence. But suppose your goal is to retire ear...

The One Thing Most FIRE Chasers Get Wrong (and Later Regret in Retirement)

24 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Why do so many in early retirement struggle with happiness? We know you’ve told yourself, “Once I hit FIRE, I’ll be living the dream! Every day ...

7 Maxed Out Credit Cards to Money Expert by Making a BIG Mental Shift

21 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Are you building wealth but feel like you can never enjoy it? Do you struggle with money, fearing you carry the same poor financial habits as your par...

The Macro Analysis is Clear: Why We Are Reallocating (Away From Stocks) to Real Estate in 2025

17 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Is it a good time to invest in real estate? Yes, and we have proof that real estate may be underpriced, even as we hover around the most expensive ave...

From $300K in Debt to Millionaire at 39 (Financial Freedom in 8 Years!)

14 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

From over $300,000 in debt to a millionaire in just eight years?! No matter where you’re at, it’s never too late to get on the path to financial f...

Can You Retire…Now? This FIRE Calculator Will Tell You!

10 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

“Do I have enough to retire?” is a question most people in the FIRE community grapple with, but today, we’re sharing a FREE tool that will help ...

Ramit Sethi’s Life-Changing "Money Conversation" Script for Couples

07 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Ramit Sethi, the money and couples’ finances expert, is back! This time, he’s teaching you how to have life-changing money conversations with your...

How to Make an Extra $100 a Day in 2025 (Working from Home!)

03 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Want to know how to make $100 a day in 2025, all while working from home? We brought the queen of side hustles, Jackie Mitchell, back on the show to s...

The Money Date: What Couples Should (& Shouldn't) Do to Align Finances

31 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Calling all couples! You and your partner may be on the same page financially or off in two different directions; regardless of where you’re at, it’...

Chasing Financial "Stability" After $100K+ in Debt and Layoffs

27 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Got debt to pay off? You might relate to Leo, a personal finance journalist who’s focused on financial stability over FIRE—at least for now. With ...

The Mad Fientist’s New Rule To Retire Early Even Sooner

24 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

If you want to retire early, the Mad Fientist is your guide. For over a decade, Brandon, more commonly known as the “Mad Fientist,” has been run...

Broke at 50? How to Retire On-Time (Or Early!)

20 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are you worried you won’t be able to retire at sixty-five? Feeling financially limited in your fifties and need a retirement plan so you can finally...

2025’s Best Money Hacks to Save $1,000+/Month (and Retire Earlier!) w/All the Hacks

17 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Do you want to know how to save $1,000 a month (or more!) with simple spending and saving tweaks? Today, we’re giving you the BEST money hacks for 2...

Finance Friday: Can I Still Reach FI by 45 If I Quit My Job?

13 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Alex Preziosi wants to reach financial independence by the age of forty-five, and with several hundred thousand dollars in retirement accounts, broker...

The 5 Biggest Money Fears Keeping You from FIRE (and How to Overcome Them)

10 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Many people struggle with money anxiety, even those in the FIRE community. Your money fears could keep you on the sidelines, or it could have the oppo...

$200K/Year & Early Retirement in 10 Years by Being a "Lazy" Investor

06 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Dion McNeeley retired in just ten years after starting from not just zero but NEGATIVE. He was forty years old with $89,000 in debt, had no assets, a ...

Average Net Worth by Age (How Do You Compare?)

03 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are you beating the average American in personal finances? Today, we’re sharing the average net worth by age to see where exactly you stack up. Whet...

Finance Friday: Middle-Class Trap on Steroids ($3.8M but CAN'T Retire!)

29 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

There’s a “middle-class trap” that can keep anyone from FIRE—yes, even high-income earners. Today’s guest has a sizable nest egg that should...

7 Scorching Money Hot Takes That Will Make Your Financial Advisor Cringe

26 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Is frugality overrated? Is hustle culture a waste of time? Do we over-save for retirement? You don’t have to look very far to find a hot take online...

FI by 34 After Making “Calculated” Bets that 99% of Us Would NOT Take

22 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

If you follow the almost unbelievable path of today’s guest, you, too, could achieve financial independence in your thirties. Would we recommend mim...

Making Six Figures While Living Abroad (NO W2!) to FI Even Faster

19 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Would you move abroad to reach FI faster? That wasn’t Brooklin Nash’s original goal when he left the US and began freelancing from afar. But now, ...

FIRE at 50: The 4-Year Journey That Made Early Retirement a Reality

15 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Could a few years of aggressive saving put you in the fast lane for financial independence? Is the grind even worth it? Today’s guest was well on hi...

Do You Need Debt to Reach FIRE? How to Use Leverage to Build Wealth

12 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Is paying off debt or investing (and potentially using more debt) the best way to reach FIRE? The average American has $104,215 in mortgages, student ...

How to Retire Early in Your 40s by Supercharging Your Savings

08 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Yes, it’s possible to retire early, even if you’re just now diving into the FIRE movement. Early retirement could be within reach whether you’re...

The Best (and Worst) States in the US to Retire in 2024 (FIRE Faster?)

05 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Should you move to reach FIRE? And if so, where to? In this episode, we’re pulling back the curtain and revealing the best places to retire in the U...

Finance Friday: Signs You’re Saving TOO Much for Retirement

01 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Are you saving TOO much for retirement (or early retirement)? Could you retire years sooner than you think? Will retirement expenses be even less than...

Reviewing Our FIRE Journeys, Timelines, and Single Biggest Regret

29 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

You can attack financial independence from one of two angles. You can create a strict timeline for achieving FIRE, or you can calculate your FIRE numb...

Finance Friday: FI by 40? Make These Career and Investment Moves Now

25 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Everyone wants to become “work-optional” at some point. Having enough money in investments and the bank would allow you to choose the job you love...

Fast-Track FI by “Gamifying” Your Finances and Making Your Own Luck

22 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

The combination of saving money and buying rentals is a recipe for reaching financial independence much faster than you thought possible. Just ask tod...

On Track to Retire a Millionaire After Living Paycheck to Paycheck

18 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Just a short while back, Marisa Mae was caught in the paycheck-to-paycheck trap, her credit cards stretched to their limits with no emergency savings ...

Should You Keep or Sell Your House? Use This Tool to Find Out in Minutes

15 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Should you sell your house or keep it as a rental property in 2024? What you do with your home today could create a million-dollar swing in your portf...

4 Ways to Make Passive Income from Real Estate (Don’t Quit Your 9-5!) w/Devon Kennard

11 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Real estate investing is one of the best vehicles for building wealth, reaching financial independence, and saving for retirement, but you don’t nee...

How Much Do You Need for Early Retirement? (How to Calculate Your FI Number)

08 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

How Much Do You Need for Early Retirement? (How to Calculate Your FI Number) Podcast Description What’s your financial independence number (FI/FIRE ...

Why This “Physician on FIRE” Ignored the 4% Rule & Delayed Early Retirement w/Leif Dahleen, MD

04 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Why do many wealthy people wait so long to retire? Despite earning a physician’s salary, living frugally, and saving what most would call “more th...

How to Reach FIRE Based on Your Income ($45K - $100K/Year)

01 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What does it mean to “win” financially in your income bracket? To us, the end goal is always FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early), and if y...

The Realistic, Repeatable Path to Investing for FIRE in Your 20s

27 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Young, old, or in between, you need to hear this episode! Today’s guest paid off over $80,000 of debt, grew her net worth to $100,000 and did it all...

FI With 5 Kids and Debt-Free in Just Over a Decade!

24 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Does FIRE seem impossible while raising a family? We’re about to prove that you CAN have it all. Emily and Joel are financially independent while ra...

Is Refinancing Worth It with Today’s Falling Rates? (+ How Much It’ll Cost)

20 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

When should you refinance your mortgage? Is now the time since interest rates have finally fallen? Or will refinancing down to today’s rates not be ...

564: How to Make Truly Passive Income with “Syndication” Real Estate

17 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Visit PassivePockets, your resource for passive investing with syndications.  Passive investing is most people’s goal, especially if they’re t...

563: Why Aren’t More “Normal” People Achieving FIRE?

13 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Has BiggerPockets Money become too focused on FIRE (financial independence, retire early)? For the past seven years, we’ve been bringing you sh...

562: Police Officer Surpasses $10K/Month FI Goal w/Out-of-State Sober Living Investments

10 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Achieving your FI number in just four years? If you want to do it too, you must try something different. This couple found a niche within a niche, ...

561: What Happens if High Expenses Extinguish Your FIRE?

06 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

You did it; you achieved FIRE! After over a decade of hard work, you’ve reached financial independence and can retire early. You’re making mo...

560: Dude ACTUALLY Withdraws From His 401(k) and Retires at 47

03 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Did you know you can use your 401(k) to retire early? Yep, it’s possible. And today’s guest, Eric Cooper, is doing it atage 47! Most FIRE chase...

559: How I Retired in My Mid-30s While Working Just 4 Hours a Week

30 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What if you could “retire” early, working only FOUR hours a week? Coast FIRE achiever Diania Merriam did just that! After a decade of hustle...

558: How to Start Investing for Retirement: 401(k), IRA, Roth?

27 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

The IRA vs. 401(k). You’ve heard of these retirement accounts before, but do you know the difference between the two? Maybe you have a 401(k) at ...

557: Buying at the Peak, Surviving a Crash, and STILL Being Able to Quit at 38

23 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Have you ever made a poor financial decision? You’re not alone! But can a bad blunder disqualify you from FIRE? Today’s guest made a huge inves...

556: FIRE in 2024: What We’d Do Differently If We Started Over Today

20 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

2013 was a pivotal year for our hosts. Scott was fresh out of college and just beginning his journey to financial independence, while Mindy and her h...

555: Retiring Early Before 30 and Why You DON'T Need Millions for FIRE

16 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

This might be the fastest path to FIRE we’ve ever seen. In just two years, Emily and James were able to retire early and travel the world full-...

554: Should I Pay Off My Mortgage or Invest? (We Did the Math)

13 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Pay off your mortgage or invest? If you’re on the path to FIRE, you’ve probably asked yourself this question. Without a mortgage payment, you co...

553: $100K by 23, Coast FI by 27 Thanks to One Smart Money Challenge

09 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Once you hit Coast FI, you don’t need to worry about retirement. While traditional FIRE may take a bit more extra work, Coast FI allows you to l...

552: From Making $40K/Year as a Teacher to Reaching FI in 4 Years by Doing THIS

06 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

You can take your time to reach financial independence, but why wait? With a combination of hard work, savvy investing, and additional income st...

BiggerPockets Real Estate 2.0 - A New Era of the Podcast

05 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

The BiggerPockets Real Estate Podcast is about to hit a huge milestone—our 1,000th episode! Real estate has changed quite a bit since we started thi...

551: Retired Early at 44 by Buying These "Boring" Investments

02 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Todd retired early at age forty-four, just three years after discovering the FIRE movement. The most interesting part? He quit without reaching his...