Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
1/8/26: Krystal and Saagar Debate Fatal ICE Shooting In Minneapolis
08 Jan 2026
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kundabolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed?
Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. It's Michelle Williams, host of Checking In on the Black Effect Podcast Network. You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside.
It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered. New year, real you. Listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm Ed Zitron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And this January, we're going to go on the road to beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada, to cover the Consumer Electronics Show, tech's biggest conference. Better Offline CES coverage won't be the usual rundown of the hottest gadgets or biggest trends, but an unvarnished look at what the tech industry plans to sell or do to you in 2025.
I'll be joined by David Roth at Defector and the writer Edward Ongueso Jr. With guest appearances from Behind the Bastards, Robert Evans, It Could Happen Here's Gare Davis, and a few surprise guests throughout the show. Listen to Better Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever else you get your podcasts from. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.
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good morning everybody welcome to breaking points um sagar is with us although remotely um he has an entire plague going through his household that i personally did not want him to spread here and he also i think did not want to spread here so i did not want to spread it i apologize even for coming in yesterday i should have known better uh norovirus plaguing through the injetti household at the moment uh so yeah but thank you i'm doing my best we're gonna stand up here
Very, very strong. And so happy Thursday, everybody. Can't forget to say that here on the show. What do we have, Crystal? We have a lot to get to. So we're going to break down this ICE shot and killed. Well, we think an ICE agent. We actually don't know what agency they're with, but we'll just go with ICE shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis. Government immediately lied about it.
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Chapter 2: What happened during the ICE shooting in Minneapolis?
That their life is in danger. And I do think it's important, you know, you and I can see wheels turning or some of the initial stuff for intent, but it actually matters more for what the officer reasonably could believe at the time. So, for example, he can't see wheels that are being turned. from where you and I could perhaps, you know, from the side.
This is also somebody, you know, you did say at the beginning, this is also very important. If you do listen to the video being told very clearly, you know, to get out of the vehicle. And so disobeying order, look, this is a tragic situation because I don't even want to sound like, you know, like callous or anything. I'm definitely not one of those people who like, oh, you get what you deserve.
At the end of the day, you know, this is an American woman on an American street and she's shot and she's killed. And, you know, if you were to ask me my personal opinion, it kind of looks like she panicked there a little bit. I do think it is dangerous, you know, ultimately putting people in these types of situations. And so just generally back, you know, to the the legal analysis.
You know, I think what's important is the reasonable fear of this person at the time. As you said, Minnesota state law is actually a bit narrower than various other different states whenever it comes to law enforcement and use of deadly force. I will say something that is very different about this. This is not a local PD.
So there are some supremacy things that could come into play as to whether there's even, you know, jurisdiction to try a federal law enforcement policy. I know it has been done in the past, but there are several different legal theories that which would say this was it's different. But anyway, state homicide. Can I speak to that for a second?
Because I asked Pisco about this and he said, first of all, you know, Minnesota state law is what would control here. Right. He would be charged with some degree of murder in the state of Minnesota. Now, there is a law in place that says federal agents can get them moved from state court to federal court. State law would still control, though.
And very likely, I mean, they might try to do a change of jurisdiction or something, but very likely he would still be tried in Minneapolis at the federal district court there, which I've actually. So that's that's very important. So it would still be state law. It would still be Minnesota law that's governing, but it would be tried at the federal district court level. Very likely.
I also think what I was reading as well is that, you know, again, we can zoom their slow-mo. That's not how reality is. The totality of shots fired in a certain window of time is going to be important for the prosecutors and for the jury if this did end up being charged. So multiple shots that are discharged in a short window, let's say 0.4 seconds, what I was reading is very, very different.
Six to eight shots, let's say, that are fired over a minute with the idea that the latter shots, you know, when you have a reasonable amount amount of time to be able to justify. So the page to the reality, to the timing is all that would be important there for a jury.
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Chapter 3: What are the details surrounding the victim's actions before the shooting?
We now know from CNN reporting that when the... This actually came directly from the state police officer who arrived on the scene who asked, is anyone else injured? And they said, no, only the woman, meaning that this guy was totally fine. Now, that doesn't mean that there wasn't contact with the vehicle.
But this whole story, there's, oh, my God, he was so lucky he escaped with his life and he's in the hospital recovering, blah, blah, blah, is also total and complete bullshit. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kundabolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health.
Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that.
We break down the topics you want to know more about. Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind inside and out healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health Stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of Checking In on the Black Effect Podcast Network.
And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered. New year, real you. Listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Ed Zitron of the Better Offline Podcast, and I want you to join me at this year's Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nevada, starting January 6th through January 10th, 2026. We're doing 10 radio-style podcast episodes about the world's biggest tech conference, and we're going to dig into the latest and weirdest gadgets, gizmos, and horrible AI gear that
that the tech industry is desperate to sell you, all while covering the biggest stories in Silicon Valley as the AI bubble threatens to burst.
I'll be joined by David Roth, Chloe Radcliffe, Adam Conover, Cory Doctorow, Ed Ongueso Jr., Robert Evans, and an incredible cast of the greatest talent in the tech media, with over 18 hours of interviews, commentary, and bizarre stories, all told from the Better Offline pop-up studio connected to its own open bar. Today I did five hours of back-to-back panels on artificial intelligence.
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Chapter 4: How did the government respond to the shooting incident?
And, you know, this is where the I think that there is so much moral certitude from a lot of the liberal commentariat about what protests are doing that they have encouraged, frankly, this type of behavior where we can just know. But right now, I mean, no, but it is the point. But why not? Because, okay, the worst you can say about this woman is that she was panicked and trying to flee, right?
I mean, that's very clearly what it looks like is going on here, right? Well, no, the worst you could say is that she was trying to kill him. No, you cannot reasonably look at this and say that. No, I'm not saying that, but that is the worst thing that you could say. That is a fiction, though. That would be a lie.
Like, the thing that is most tethered to reality that you could say about her is that she was trying to flee, right? Okay. That's what I think. The worst thing you can say about this officer is that he murdered a woman. And he is backed by the state and the President of the United States. Like, which one of those things is more concerning?
An individual civilian woman who fails to do exactly what the police want her to do in that moment? Or... State sanctioned murder. I mean, like just in terms of where the upset lies, to me, it's no contest. And especially again- Right, because I think that's very zoomed in and that kind of ignores the last five years that we lived through. But it does. No, no, no, no, no, no.
It is zoomed in, but it is reflective of the context we live in right now, which is not really about these individual police shootings, which is also horrible, and we can talk about that in separate terms. This is about these specific surging of these untrained agents masked up, unaccountable, unidentified, operating in rogue, insane ways, you know, tear gassing a baby, right?
Arresting American citizens, racially profiling routinely, you know, firing weapons now at this point routinely, and then lying about it brazenly, Even when we have the video, even when we have the body camera evidence, like that is the broader picture that I'm concerned about.
And so look, in any law enforcement agency, the best thing you can say is, look, there's always going to be a few bad apples. And that used to always be the line, right? Like, yes, this was horrible, but there's a few bad apples. We have to look at this, you know, systematically. And the fact that this is just immediately justified.
The murder of ā the killing of an American citizen is just immediately justified by ā and lied about by ā and the person who was killed also immediately lied about by Kristi Noem, by Trisha McLaughlin, and then by the president of the United States. Like that to me is really the most concerning thing here.
A much higher level concern over that versus whether, you know, every individual protester is acting in exactly the right and appropriate manner. Yeah, I look I'm not denying the power dynamic. I just I do think, though, that there is a lot of ignoring, frankly, you know, of exactly what I just talked about in these types of tactics.
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Chapter 5: What legal implications arise from the officer's use of deadly force?
And I think you do, too. And I also think that when you look at the way that the governor and the mayor and the president have now all reacted, I can't help but see it continuing to go down that route. I wish we could just kind of. stand athwart it and yell, stop. But I don't see a way out. That's what... I mean, that is what is really depressing to me is that...
You know, you and I have talked before about these people who always jump online. Civil war is coming, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that's fucking ridiculous. Like, you've watched too many movies. This is absurd. But I have to tell you, I mean, I look at this whole chain of events, right? Which really starts with Nick Shirley's, like, Slopaganda video. Which, you know, the...
the Trump administration takes and runs with, not in any sort of serious, hey, let's see, is there fraud? Like, does this actually point to anything real? No, it's, we're gonna do this massive show of force, right? So it starts with a fabrication and a piece of propaganda.
And then you end up here where immediately you have almost the entire right branding this protester a domestic terrorist and saying, fuck her, she deserved it. And you have the government pushing out a totally fabricated version of events. And I'm just looking at this and going like, we do not live in the same reality. Well, they're the post-truth environment has truly said it.
And I've already seen like A.I. videos of this woman and this officer that are being spread around. And so you don't have a shared understanding of reality you have. And then you you don't even have a shared understanding of like what the nation even is.
You've got the Stephen Miller version that's some like blood and soil ethno-nationalist project where they want to deport 100 million people, which would include every non-white American in the country, not to mention the undocumented immigrants, of course. And I don't know. I mean, I do get very ā it makes me feel very dark about how ā
how we continue to make this thing work as a nation when we don't have a shared understanding of reality and we don't even have like a shared grounding in what the nation even actually is. I don't disagree per se, but I mean, I do think, look, we haven't gotten a chance to weigh in on the Shirley thing.
Look, I mean, it's pretty obvious, like, you know, Shirley's not going to be winning a Pulitzer Prize anytime soon. I do think, you know, just dismissing it outright as slopaganda or whatever, it kind of belies the point as to why it went really viral in the first place. And the governor ultimately did resign. I mean, at the end of the day, he decided not to run for president. Yeah. OK.
Not running for reelection is pretty seismic when you were the sitting vice presidential candidate. Not only what a year ago, almost a year and a half ago that Nick Shirley identified a single instance of legitimate fraud. Well, no, because that's not. I mean, but I mean, that tells you it's propaganda, right?
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Chapter 6: What are the broader implications of ICE's actions in communities?
Yeah, I mean, the Snow one is particularly egregious. Again, I think we waited a long time to play the government's narrative because I didn't think it was all that material here. And I do ā that's part of the issue. They're not exactly trustworthy. You talked about Chicago and in multiple other instances where they failed in court. I learned that one the hard way on Seacott.
Whenever they said that every single person had been a verified gang member, but, you know, comes out that like half literally aren't and or, you know, there's no particular evidence. So this is partially why I do not very optimistic about this situation. In particular because the level of information that came out here from the federal authorities does ā I mean just look.
It almost ā it always didn't mean something. It's like I'm not going to sit here and say the government always lies to you or obviously that always ā that generally was the case. Like you should always be very, very skeptical. But the Snow one in particular makes it so that you're like how ā how can we really take it seriously?
When you say this, that's why the video evidence and the testimony and the body camera footage is ultimately what I think matters the most. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally. And I'm Hari Kundabolu. It's a new year, and on the podcast Health Stuff, we're resetting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be.
I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that, or am I just depressed? We talk to experts who share real experiences and insight. You just really need to find where it is that you can have an impact in your own life and just start doing that. We break down the topics you want to know more about.
Sleep, stress, mental health, and how the world around us affects our overall health. We talk about all the ways to keep your body and mind, inside and out, healthy. We human beings, all we want is connection. We just want to connect with each other. Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.
Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, we always say new year, new me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. Hey everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of Checking In on the Black Effect Podcast Network.
And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season whole and empowered. New year, real you. Listen to Checking In with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Ed Zitron of the Better Offline Podcast, and I want you to join me at this year's Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nevada, starting January 6th through January 10th, 2026.
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Chapter 7: How does public perception influence the narrative around law enforcement?
Because people should expect accountability. from their taxpayer-paid agents of the state should be held to some kind of standard. And we have not seen that happen a single time. Not a single time have any of these ICE thugs been held to any standard. So it is absolutely correct and appropriate to set an expectation that there should be accountability.
And look, again, can we say what will happen? No. Should he be indicted? Should it go through the process so that this debate can play out and a jury of his peers can decide? A hundred percent.
And so I think it is not only appropriate, I think it is the responsible thing to do to set that expectation that he should be indicted, that there should be an open and transparent process, and that it should go through the justice system so that we can have confidence That there is some level of even theoretical accountability with these guys instead of what you get from the trial.
Like, I genuinely believe, Sagar, that if this man had pulled this woman out and executed her on the street, that Trump and Tricia McLaughlin and Kristi Noem and J.D. Vance would all justify it and say, we stand with them. And this was a domestic terrorist and she deserved it. I 100% believe that.
And so I think it is the lowest expectation we could possibly have is that there is some sort of a process that plays out where it can go through the justice system and he can have his day in court and he can have his representation and he can make his case and a jury of his peers can decide. Well, I don't agree with that actually at all.
The idea that you're going to just execute somebody literally on video and it would be ā would a certain percentage of people? Maybe. Yes. Do you think the leaders would? Yes. Well, no. I think that the reason that people are ā I mean you can acknowledge there is an actual question here of self-defense. That's part of the reason why this is a debate literally at all.
Nobody argued about George Floyd or at least at the time. They certainly didn't. Now they do. Until his toxicology report came out, which again ā Legitimate question to be able to argue at trial, but that's not the same thing. So, no, I think that that's completely inaccurate, honestly.
And it really belies which I mean, I'm going to bring back to the certitude like it's not it's not a it is not a decided question, really, either way. I think some people should go to trial. Well, OK, you're saying I think it should potentially be indicted or I think it should potentially go to a grand jury. A grand jury could decide to send it to indictment whatsoever.
But I'm saying if you set an expectation from the beginning that non indictment itself is going to be a travesty of justice. I think that that is kind of setting things up for rioting, just like what happened with Breonna Taylor, where it became a 100 percent no questions asked, had to go. And then it didn't happen. And of course, people did riot violently.
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