Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Esther Perel, welcome back to Call Her Daddy. It's a treat for me to be back. Third time. I know. I'm so happy. This is the first time that we've met in person. That's right. And it feels right. I remember during the pandemic, I felt like you were my safe place. I was like, I need you. We all need you.
Talk to me. And we had such an amazing... We've had such amazing conversations. And today, I'm just ready to get back into it. For anyone who lives under a rock... Thank you so much for having me. Should we just get into it?
Where shall we begin? As we say on the podcast. Where should we begin?
I think a lot of women are really, really discouraged by the current state of dating. What do you think is just behind that?
There's a lot of things behind what's happening to dating. Dating is the symptom. But maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships? that is making dating more complicated. The world of dating itself, romantic consumerism is really challenging.
when you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good, when you are dealing continuously with the paradox of choice with so many options and looking for a soulmate on an app, and with the tremendous case of FOMO, when the ick factor is so omnipresent and very, very quick to kick in.
When we need more social skills than we ever needed before because we are living in such a contactless reality and we actually don't have the skills to speak to people, to look at them. One of the first things we just did when we saw each other is touch. You know, we have been so disembodied.
So we looked at each other, we smiled to each other, we touched each other, and we kind of really grounded ourselves in each other's presence so that we can have a conversation rather than trying to look for algorithmic perfection.
I completely agree with everything you just said. But specifically, I think what is very applicable to my audience is like we're looking for the perfect and we're so hyper fixated on because there's such an enormity of options out there. Because back in the day, our parents never had the access we have. They didn't know that there was a guy named Mike in L.A.
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Chapter 2: What are the current challenges in dating?
as predictable as these apps are. And that is becoming somehow a negative in our eyes. We're like, it should just be, you know, black and white. But really, that used to be what was so divine.
We are by nature unpredictable, flawed, imperfect. And that, you know, what happens when you look for perfection and predictability in people is that you stop being able to deal with the messiness of human life. the smells, the bumps, the caretaking, the less shiny aspects of intimacy, i.e. not the six pack, right? Not the six pack, Esther. Not the six pack.
What do you do when you're dealing with the messiness of human life and you've become accustomed to always on delivery of your every delight, you know, perfect pitch? That is before the advice. That's even before we've come to the advice. Right.
Can we also focus on, I love how you said, like the feeling of these people are going out there and then there's this anxiety. But I think something so beautiful about first dates and first experiences or second dates or third dates is sometimes the butterflies we feel when we meet someone and there's the unknown and again, the unpredictability that shouldn't scare us.
It should excite you to some degree.
Or the knowledge that when you meet someone, excitement and insecurity go hand in hand. Of course you're anxious. Of course you're wondering. Of course you're unsure. Of course you're trepidatious. And you're excited. And you're expectant. It's all of this in a fantastic soup. It's not a problem. It is...
What happens when you have the mystery meeting the longing, meeting the desire, meeting the uncertainty, and meeting possibility? Right.
How can someone tell the difference, though, between anxious butterflies and then when it's actually a warning sign that maybe something is off?
Yeah.
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Chapter 3: How can we build stronger connections in relationships?
Did you think about me as much as I thought about you? You know, instead of wondering how many words shall I send before I show myself to be too needy and too dependent? No. No.
you know if you put it out and the other person answers in kind you know that something is happening between us right and if they don't it's okay like you will find someone else let's say someone finally is like all right esther i am going to approach dating now i'm going to be less stressed i'm going to allow myself to just move past that fear of the unpredictable and i'm going to lean in
I think we've heard people say, you know, this person checks all my boxes, right? In your opinion, when is it realistic to have a list of qualities you're looking for in a partner? And when does that actually end up instead limiting you?
Every time I think about the list, the checklist, the boxes, I always think, do you put as much emphasis on who you want to be than who you want to find, right? I mean, it's like, what is this? This is the consumerism. I come with my checklist. I sit in front of you in a noisy bar and I'm going to ask my questions and see if you check my boxes. That is such an awful experience.
And if you think that in the middle of that, you're going to get goosebumps or some butterflies in your belly, you're off the chart. Seriously. It's so true. It's also like... Who do you want to be? How do you show up? What do you want? It's like so... Product, you know? I'm coming to check if you fit the product.
Wait, like I want to get a product review.
Yes.
Are you a five stars? That's actually so humbling. And I... Do you do that? No, I was going to say I'm married and I even was like, because I used to do that. And I think it's so honest what you're saying is like we all look inward. Half the time we have expectations for people that we don't even meet ourselves. Like some of the things I used to expect.
Who do you want to be? I mean, you want a person to have this, this, this. Who do you want to be? What do you bring? What do you want to offer? What do you want to share? Who do you want them to think that they are in the presence of?
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Chapter 4: How does infidelity impact relationships?
It's like, look inward. Don't just, you know. Expect. Because even that question can become a list, too.
I agree with you. It's almost like you can't tell people exactly what to look for because I agree it needs to complement you. Is there anything quality wise that you actually think we should start to devalue, though, as a society that people are looking too much for and that's not what we should be focused on?
Yeah, I think that so much of our pressures at this point are about focusing on the self and on the optimization of the self and on the self-hacking and on the self-fulfillment and the self-worth and the self-awareness and the self-self-self. And then even when you ask, what should I look for in a partner? It's what can this partner bring to me rather than what are each other's needs that we can
cultivate together. It's very different to say a we versus a you who is going to help me become more of myself and make me become the best version of myself. You know, you live in a big world. There's a lot of things to think about besides just me.
Let's talk about friction yes because I know that you are passionate about needing to invite a little bit of friction into our dating lives what is the benefit of doing that and can you explain what that even means what that even means when I said to you before that our
technologies, our predictive technologies are trying to remove all the inconveniences. What they're trying to do is present you with a very polished life where there is no friction, no obstacles.
Nothing that you have to work through, which traditionally has always been seen as that which gives you a sense of resilience, that which gives you experience, that which is necessary for child development. It's true for little kids as well. They need friction. They need to resolve problems. They need to figure it out. They need to make mistakes and correct it. So do we. So that's friction.
Besides that, I'm a sex therapist as well. And there's a beautiful formula of Jack Maureen, a major sexologist, who that says attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or desire. Obstacle is friction. It makes me want more when I don't have and I have to reach out and I have to seduce and I have to be imaginative rather than it's right in my lap.
Well, and I was going to say, I think it's important to to clarify, like, what is the difference between good friction and bad friction? Because I don't want any girls going like, oh, wow, we need to fight. We need to fight to feel the thrill.
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Chapter 5: What are the warning signs of codependency?
So I'm going to, we need to find our middle ground of where we both can respect each other that you need some reprieve right now. You can't just be waiting for three days. And also I don't, can't have this conversation in 20 minutes. So where can you meet in the middle? Again, that just takes accountability, right?
It's accountability and it's acknowledgement of the differences. I mean, you're needing the three days is not because of me. You need three days is because of who you are and how you've learned to calm down and whatever history you come with. And the most important piece about it is not to personalize it. Then I can say, look, after a day, because I'm not sure that you like the three days.
Maybe you actually would love it if it was just half a day, but you don't know how to do it. Because, you know, you wait, you wait, you wait till all the nervous system kind of sets back in. You've gone three times to do sports, whatever you needed to do to kind of, you know, get yourself back to ground zero. I could help you actually. That's the thing.
I may actually be able to tell you, hey, you're not going to lose face and you don't have to feel like you're giving in and giving up if you talk to me two days before and I'm not going to attack you. Can we sit and just look at what happened here? So I'll help you with the three days. It's not just the middle because it's nice to meet in the middle ground.
It's that I have something you don't have.
Hmm.
Right, because I'm not arguing or fighting with myself. Like there's another person that has the keys to the answers of why they acted that way and why I acted that way.
Yeah, where did you learn to need three days? I think that something that would be very useful for all your listeners is the typical thing is to say what you fight about rather than what is it that you're fighting for. And when you look at what people fight for, Howard Markman summarized it really beautifully. He's a researcher on couples. And he said, people fight about a few major things.
The first one is people fight for power and control. Whose decisions matter most? Whose needs get priority? Who gets to decide?
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