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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk with Aviva Insurance.
Chapter 2: What was the significance of the UK voting to leave the EU ten years ago?
Now, 10 years ago, the UK voted to leave the UK. A decade later, Brexit continues to shape politics, trade and indeed daily life. So has it been a success or a failure? Neil Richmond is with me, Fine Gael Minister of State for International Development and Diaspora. You're very welcome to the programme. This was a big deal for you at the time. I mean, people might remember back then
You were on every UK show during all of these negotiations that were happening. It was a tricky time, one that you had to balance very carefully in terms of what you said. How do you reflect back on it?
Well, I think one day I did 23 media interviews in a row, starting at five to six, finishing at half past midnight. And that wasn't rare.
Chapter 3: How has Brexit impacted politics and daily life in the UK and Ireland?
And it was the whole time trying to keep a very clear balancing act that you're talking about the affairs of another country. And as a politician, you don't want to talk about the internal affairs of another country. But ultimately, the decision had a massive impact on Europe and particularly Ireland, Ireland more so. And this is what we were dealing with. We were dealing with the peace process.
We were dealing with the Good Friday Agreement and threats to it. So it got really, really difficult. And my big takeaway was the sheer level of ignorance about Ireland, about how the EU works, not just generally in the UK, but amongst really senior politicians who had been making this case.
I saw you were writing about this in the Business Post at the weekend and you were saying that they didn't really have a plan. They didn't really know what Brexit meant in a very practical sense. And you're not talking about voters there, are you? You're talking about right at the top. They didn't know what, well, they didn't expect it to happen, firstly.
No, the result went against all expectations. 52-48, extremely narrow. The result made no sense. That's been proved out now. And how many times I had it screamed into my face that leave means leave, but no one ever explained what leave actually means. What does this mean for the border in Ireland? What does this mean for Ireland?
you know, customs unions, the price of food, the price of anything. No one ever had a plan, no one right at the top and it goes back to the heart of the people who pushed this. It was a clear agenda from the likes of Nigel Farage, Jacob Rees-Mogg and some more shady characters who really were pushing that sort of free market libertarian view.
They want us to go on WTO terms completely unheard of.
But it was David Cameron who made the commitment back at the time of that election that, you know, if he won, that he would run this referendum fully believing that Remain would win. But you make the point in that piece yesterday, you can't kick the EU for years and years and years and then expect to convince people in six weeks that it's the place to be.
What people forget about this Brexit referendum is it wasn't the first one.
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Chapter 4: What challenges did negotiators face during the Brexit discussions?
The UK joined the EEC with Ireland in 1973. And what was the first thing they did? They had a referendum in 1975 to leave it. And this was a constant theme. The party that was initially anti-European was the Labour Party. And over years, that became the cause of the Conservatives. And they were constantly being outflanked by UKIP, which is reform now as reform.
And the whole time was, we don't like having to do this, but Europe is making us do it. And how many times have we heard that here? How many times have we heard Irish politicians, oh well, Brussels is coming over and they're forcing us. Even last week when we were talking about the EU migration pact, oh this is an assault on the Irish people, we should be having a referendum.
Hold on, we had a parliament, we had a DƔil elected in the last term who said they'd enact this. We passed the legislation and this is coming in. So constantly saying that shadowy force is over and Brussels are forcing to it. The last two secretaries general have come from Dublin and Wexford. you know, constantly hammering the EU. It's easy politics, but it's lazy politics.
And so today, you know, given we've seen Keir Starmer come out through the black door on Downing Street and tender his resignation, essentially, and Brexit is very much back on the agenda again, isn't it? What will you do? You know, they're all asked, what will you do about membership of the EU, membership of the common market? Do you think it will be revisited?
It depends on the result. Wes Streeting, who would like to be the next Prime Minister, would like to be the next Labour leader, has said they should have a campaign to rejoin or at least rejoin the Customs Union.
Doesn't look like he's going to go, though, this time.
Look, I'm no fool. I fully expect Andy Burnham to be the next Prime Minister after this. And I quite welcome that. I met him the day you met him and not so long ago. Good guy, good, strong Irish roots, has been a good mayor objectively. But he hasn't. He certainly hasn't said that they'll rejoin the EU. If anything, he says, no, I'm going to make Brexit work.
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Chapter 5: What were the misconceptions about Brexit among UK politicians?
And I feel sorry for Keir Starmer for loads of reasons. Objectively, he hasn't been a bad Prime Minister, but he's been completely hamstrung. Hamstrung by the impacts of Brexit. Whoever replaces him, and whatever they try to do, they are inheriting a British economy and a British society that has been systematically damaged by Brexit. And there isn't a clear pathway out.
And as far as the EU is concerned, and we know that the EU wrapped itself around Ireland, you know, it was like fortress EU with Ireland right at the centre of it when the negotiations were happening. Would the EU welcome the question of Brexit to be raised again now?
It depends which member state you visit, to be quite frank. This is the thing, when Brexit was dominating my life and the headlines everywhere here, you'd go over to a meeting in Brussels and it wasn't even mentioned. Because the further you moved away geographically from the UK, it just wasn't a big impact.
Economically, society, they go like, well, let them have their moment and they'll make their decision. The EU has moved on. Certainly there are a lot of people rightly at the... Leadership at a European level want a closer relationship with the UK on areas like security, defence, tackling the pandemic, climate change, energy needs. Britain's important.
It's still a really big country, regardless of the impact of Brexit. It's still in the G7, it's still in the G20, it's still a hugely powerful country around the world. So certainly within the EU, lots of people would like a closer relationship. But I don't know if there's too many people. I'd love to see the UK come back. And of course I would.
But I don't know how many other European colleagues really want to get pulled into another British psychodrama going on about Brexit.
Well, there's also that theory that if the question was raised again, that there would have to be penalties, that you can't just step in and step out and expect that to be a free process. It would have to be expensive, difficult and perhaps painful.
And this played into a lot of the real leave arguments. I can't believe we're net contributors to the EU. It's a good thing if you're a net contributor. We're much happier that Ireland's a net contributor. The British had also negotiated a series of carve-outs over the years, just like the Danes had and indeed Ireland had in various areas.
But trying to rejoin doesn't mean that you inherit all those carve-outs that you had before and various things that you had derogations on. Equally, the UK literally paid a price to leave the EU. There is a divorce settlement. There is that requirement. So just thinking you can just jump back in and everything's tickety-boo is unlikely.
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Chapter 6: How did the Brexit referendum affect Ireland's relationship with the EU?
That there would be an agreement which would throw Ireland under the bus and throw the Good Friday Agreement under the bus?
When I was with European colleagues, absolutely not. Genuinely. And I sat with Michelle Barnier, who was the key negotiator, multiple times. And this was night and day. This wasn't about Ireland. This was about the EU and the importance of the Union.
I did get worried when I'd repeatedly have to go on Irish media, and particularly Northern Irish media, which was a trickier station, believe it or not, and people just couldn't...
Because of that, and I go back to my central point, the level of ignorance about how the European Union works meant people couldn't believe that the EU actually stuck up for a member state and stuck up for what the union actually means.
And do you think now, as you look at it, that the deal, I know you don't agree with Brexit in and of itself, but the deal that was negotiated, is it working for Ireland now?
It's protecting Ireland. The situation could have been a lot worse. I've said it a million times. There's no such thing as a good Brexit. It's all about damage limitation. And what we do have at the moment is working as best possible. There's certainly areas we'd like to see it work better and be cooperation to be closer.
Thankfully, thanks to European solidarity and a really consistent negotiation mandate, and I must say, political agreement across the spectrum here, I'd hammer the opposition at every opportunity if given the chance. But there was multiple times when they could have absolutely abandoned the unified Irish position and they didn't.
And I do believe the opposition deserves a bit of credit for that as well.
All right, we'll leave it there. Minister of State Neil Richmond, 10 years on from Brexit. Thank you for coming in to join us.
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