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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk. With Aviva Insurance. But first, road accidents involving deer are on the increase, as are insurance claims that involve accidents with the animals. Now, Ireland's population is believed to be on the increase. One estimate puts the number of deer in Ireland at 600,000. So does the population need to be controlled, even culled? And how do you go about it?
Well, I'm joined now by the founder of Wild Ireland, Cillian McLaughlin, and independent Donegal councillor, Michael McClafferty. Cillian, I'll start with you.
Chapter 2: What is the current state of the deer population in Ireland?
Good morning to you, firstly.
Good morning, Clare.
Do you think we have a problem with deer in Ireland?
I think that from my perspective, I advocate for a science-led approach to this. So I can't answer the question because nobody has actually established how many deer there are. You quoted one estimate of 600,000. I've seen that put between 400,000 deer. So there's a huge margin for error there. And we need to find out
How many deer are there and what our sustainable carrying capacity is first before we make any decisions? It seems to me that culling is the answer. Now, what is the question? Nobody has asked these questions and that's where my queries come from. How many deer? What's the sustainable carrying capacity?
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Chapter 3: Why is there a debate about controlling the deer population?
Nobody's looking at these and I'm advocating for a science evidence led approach to this. rather than what appears to be anecdotal evidence that deer numbers are increasing and causing problems.
When you say a science-led answer, the question you're asking is how many deer do we have in Ireland, firstly?
Firstly, we need to establish what our baseline population is at the moment and then what our carrying capacity is.
So you were talking to the Irish Times in an article they have on all of this today. And in that article, it explains to us that the Sika deer was designated by the European Union as an invasive species only last year. So can you explain to us how come we have the Sika deer in Ireland?
Well, the Sika deer was introduced as an ornamental animal on the estates around Wicklow and in County Tyrone. And deer are very good at escaping. And they hopped over the fences and they established themselves in the Irish countryside. The Sika deer that we have in Ireland originated in Japan, I believe, the smaller Sika deer. But they're quite problematic for two reasons.
One, they can hybridise with our native red deer. And two, they congregate in huge numbers, which means that diseases like TB can proliferate through the population very quickly. So the other problem, of course, is in the large numbers. They do overgraze and cause damage to trees and forestry, etc.,
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Chapter 4: What scientific approach is suggested for understanding deer numbers?
Okay, and are native red deer, are they still a significant part of the population? I know we don't have the scientific answers, but just anecdotally and in your experience.
Again, Clare, we don't know. There's never been a census of deer in Ireland. We don't know what we have. We certainly have at least three species, possibly four species of deer, which are native red deer, of course, the Sika deer. We have fallow deer that were introduced by the Normans. Most people will be familiar with those from the Phoenix Park. They're in the wider countryside as well.
And there is potentially a small deer which has been recorded in the wild in Ireland called a muntjac deer. Particularly in Donegal, we've had a few sightings of them, believe it or not. So, yeah, we just don't know the answer to the questions. And until there are definite answers, I don't think culling should be discussed at all. Because, you know, if culling is the answer...
then why are we being told the problem is worsening? The last time we spoke, I think the year call at that point, I think it was around 2022 we had this conversation. And I remember quoting 55,000 deer were killed that year. That has increased, believe it or not, to 78,000 deer killed in 2023. And go right back to when the cull started in 1995, there were 5,000 deer culled.
So something's telling me culling's not the answer here. It's not working.
It's not working. OK, well, let's bring in Michael at this point, Councillor Michael McClafferty. Michael, you're welcome to the programme. Good morning to you.
Good morning Clare, good morning listeners.
So Cillian was making the point that we simply don't know how many deer we have on the island of Ireland. So before we start heading out with our shotguns, we need to count them.
Look, Clare, at the end of the day, Killian's entitled to his point, his opinion, same as everybody else. How many we have, he's right, I don't know. Probably nobody knows, to be fair. Getting a count of them, I agree, would be somewhat helpful. But also, while we're taking time to try and count them, I'm not sure how we would achieve that, to be fair, or how that's done.
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Chapter 5: How did the Sika deer become an invasive species in Ireland?
Isn't that right? Like if you shoot the lead stag, the rest of them run riot then, don't they, with the breeding?
Exactly. I mean, it really is a shot in the dark at the moment that we just send the army out in and shoot away until... We get what we want to achieve. And I don't think there's even an answer to that either, Clare. I mean, what does success look like? Do we exterminate our native deer? Now, the Sika deer was introduced.
The red deer is a native animal to Ireland, and it's an integral part of our ecosystem. It's vitally important for the regeneration of forestry, believe it or not. And when it overpopulates, it can have a negative impact on forestry. But the deer go into the forest, they open up the canopy, they allow light through the small endangered
plants that we have here, like orchids thrive, insects thrive with that light getting through the canopy. So deer are really important. Let's not villainize our native species here. Now, what actually happens, to get back to your question, Deer, like everything in nature, they're very good at surviving. They've survived for millions of years.
So when we take animals out of the population, the deer biologically, however they do this, become aware of that. And what we see is what's called a rebound population. So young, once those adult animals are taken out of the population, young hinds, which is a female red deer and Sika come in season a year earlier. So they start breeding a lot younger.
The young stags that are maybe pushed off the breeding grounds into the forests and hiding in the ditches, they come out then and they all start breeding. So we get this rebound in the population and it bounces back very quickly and it's a natural response to a reduction in the population.
I have another listener here, Cillian, you'll be interested in this, calling for a cull of seals, saying that seals are decimating our salmon stocks and we need a seal cull, particularly those that are entering our rivers. Are you aware of that problem?
See, Clare, this is why what really alarms me, our answer to everything in this country is to cull, okay? Who says seals are responsible for the reduction in salmon population? What about pollution?
What about the way we're managing our farmed salmon and the lice and the problems that the salmon farms... I live beside the Loxwilly here and wild salmon have to swim past salmon farms where they pick up all sorts of diseases and they don't get as far as the rivers. So it's really, you know, what next? What do we start culling next? You know,
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Chapter 6: What impact does the deer population have on local ecosystems?
And I don't think they are. And I can't answer that because nobody has looked at this in detail. There's no statistics or figures or count or anything like that. For all we know, the deer in Donegal are decreasing in numbers, but the cars may be increasing or the speed is increasing or the amount of roads or the direction of the roads. There are so many variables.
Let's see what Michael thinks of that. For all you know, the deer population could be decreasing, but the number of cars increasing. Michael, what do you say?
I don't necessarily agree with that, Clare, to be fair, because our deer population doesn't seem to be really decreasing that much, to be fair about it. As for the car end of it, look, I'm not going to disagree with Cillian on that. All I can do is go by the amount of cars getting smashed around here, obviously.
But the ironic thing is, Clare, here where the cars get smashed in most places, they are deer signs up, so people are aware. And it's not necessarily visitors either, youth of the area, that cars are getting smashed. It's local people that are aware the deers are about. But unfortunately, the deers run in front.
When I say deers run in front, Clare, and they get smashed, you're dealing with maybe five, eight, ten deers running across the road together. So it's unedible like that, you know, what's your best intention? No matter how you manage, it's unedible to miss them all. And this is the reality.
And if you do swerve to miss them, to miss them yourself in certain situations, you know, the chances are then you're going to crash into whoever's beside you on the other side, like, you know, maybe end up injuring or killing somebody. So at the end of the day, there's a lot of factors to come in here as well. I don't necessarily buy into it that speed is the problem.
I buy into what I would say is the fact that here we have so many deers here in Donegal and the Parks and Wildlife and others are not catering for them now at the moment due to the increase that is there.
And like other places I understand, elsewhere throughout Ireland, what's happening at the moment, when motorways are built and so on, there's fences and whatnot put up along the motorways and roads in particular as well, new roads, so that the deers and that can't be running onto the roads.
We don't unfortunately at the moment, here's Kelly and Will and O's here in Donegal, we don't have the fencing here at the moment to keep them safe either.
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Chapter 7: What are the challenges associated with culling deer?
I mean, both myself, yourself and Killian, we're all of an age where we can recall from our younger days, Benji, the TV programme and so on, being on a three dog. You recall, Clare, being on, I'm sure, and Killian, I'm sure as well, but... And other TV pros like it in the day. But you know what was the main attraction a lot of the time?
Your lynx, your cougar, your wolf, your bear, whatever, coming in to endanger some child or whatever and bends you or whoever to the rescue. This was the kind of situation going on. And I mean, like, no harm to Killian and his point. I respect his point.
Killian's point may be fair somewhere in the likes of, we'll say, for example, some national park that's totally 100% safely fenced in where the lynx, the wolf, if they are there, introduced as he puts it, cannot get out. And obviously the human population then cannot go on either, or at least go on under safety measures at the very least. if they want to go in for satine or so on.
But as other... But he says they're everywhere.
They're all over Europe and there's no problem. That's what Cillian says. They don't harm people in other countries.
And have the wolves not killed people or lynx possibly in other countries?
Cillian?
No, no, they haven't. That's the thing. It would be headline news. It would be headline news.
Would you consider it, Michael?
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