Chapter 1: What is Ireland's role in the European Union?
Do we really understand Ireland's place in the European Union or even how the EU really works? Well, joining me now is former ambassador to the European Union, the UK and Italy, Bobby McDonagh. Hello, Bobby. You're very welcome.
Good morning, Clare.
You've written this guide, The European Union in 12 Objects. And what you're trying to do is demystify the European Union. Why 12 Objects, firstly?
Well, I'm inspired by the British Museum publication some years ago, History of the World in 100 Objects, which became a joint project with the BBC. So I thought I would do something that was fresh and original and engaging, which is to describe the European Union in 12 objects. Why 12? Well, of course, you have to... Constrain yourself. Discipline and structure is a good thing.
But I chose 12 because there are 12 stars on the European flag. And once I'd chosen that, then I worked out which 12 objects I would choose. So they're household objects, as you've seen, like a mirror, a weighing scale, a table and so on. Because the European Union is immensely interesting and it's not at all boring. Before I... Launched it at the International Dublin Book Festival last week.
I was in the green room and there was another author there and I gave her a copy of the book and she said, oh, I'm really delighted to get that because I really want to know more about Europe. It's so boring, but it's not boring at all.
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Chapter 2: How does Bobby McDonagh aim to demystify the EU?
It's immensely exciting.
Yeah.
Both in the way it operates and in what it can achieve for Ireland.
But do you feel that, you know, perhaps people feel that, that it is boring? Or did you come from this more of a place that you feel the notion of the European Union perhaps is under threat or the value that people see it brings to their lives is something that they're questioning at times?
Well, people are to an extent bored by it everywhere. Perhaps not so much in this country because our media cover it better than other countries and because we've had several referendums.
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Chapter 3: Why did McDonagh choose 12 objects to explain the EU?
But there's a sort of vicious circle. People are bored because they don't understand it. They don't understand it because it's not explained and it's not explained because they're bored. So, I mean, I think the reasons that it's not fully understood anywhere are threefold, very briefly.
First of all, because people associate with the local issue, as you know very well, rather than an issue that's that far away. Secondly, because it's immensely complex. The European Union is more complex, shall we say, than Ireland to understand how it works. And yet the amount of media coverage of it is probably only 10% of what we give to Ireland. And thirdly, of course, there's so much
disinformation and cyber warfare and lies about it. So all those things make it very difficult to understand. But I hope that this book will make a contribution that's both accurate but also entertaining.
People get frustrated, don't they? And recent examples include the conflict in the Middle East when America went into Iran. It took a while for the EU to react and respond to that and to tell us what they thought about it. And then going back to the conflict in Gaza, it was a similar situation where...
where we had Spain going out on a limb and Ireland going out on a limb to a certain extent without it felt the backing of the EU.
You're right, Clare. I mean, one of the chapters in this book, one of my objects is a Persian rug. And it's a Persian rug because Persian rugs often have a deliberate flaw because only Allah can make something that is perfect. And one of the first things I say when I'm talking about Europe is that Europe is imperfect. But everything is imperfect. News talk is imperfect. RTE is imperfect.
Every family is imperfect. So, unfortunately, the European Union, more than other organisations, because people don't like one aspect of it, even if they support 80-85% of it, they challenge the whole thing. So, particularly on the Middle East and Gaza, I'm profoundly concerned about what is happening. I've written about it quite a lot. I've appeared on Al Jazeera. I care about it a lot.
But the European Union has complex decision-making procedures, which is one of the things I'm trying to explain in this book. So to do things, you need either unanimity of all the member states or a qualified majority of most of the member states. And that's very difficult to achieve. And the only way to change that would be to remove the unanimity requirement for most foreign policy decisions.
Now, I'd be happy to do that. But if there was a proposal to remove the unanimity requirement, which allows us to block things we don't like, I can guarantee you that many of the people who are complaining about Gaza would be the very first to object to a decision-making procedure being changed in the European Union to allow it to act more effectively.
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Chapter 4: What are the common misconceptions about the EU?
And so the European Union was set up not because Europeans are perfect, but precisely because they're imperfect. And they need procedures that allow them to work cooperatively together more than they have ever done in history and more than any other group of countries in the world does today.
People worry about that, though, don't they? Further cooperation. And, you know, you've touched on this in our conversation around unanimity because of the increasing threat from Russia, the changing relationship with the United States. Do you see the raison d'etre, if you like, of the European Union changing?
Not at all. I see it absolutely increasing. I mean, Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, said recently that we don't have to submit to a more transactional, insular and brutal world. And he said that the international order will be rebuilt out of Europe. A Canadian said that sometimes people outside Europe have a better understanding of a potential than we have ourselves.
So the raison d'etre of Europe is much greater internationally. than it even was before. It is under existential threat in many ways, including from Russian aggression on the continent of Europe.
So it's all the more vital that we work together with all our imperfections, both in the interests of the citizens of each country, in the interests of citizens of Europe as a whole, and of the wider world.
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Chapter 5: How does media coverage impact public understanding of the EU?
Because as Mark Carney said, if the international order is rebuilt, it won't come from the United States, it won't come from Russia, it won't come from China. There are some countries, of course, that have good values like we do, like Norway and Australia and so on.
But the only part of the world that has both the values and the heft to provide leadership with all its imperfections is the European Union.
You say it's under threat, but we've had the political change in Hungary now. Hungary had long been under Viktor Orban, the fly in the European ointment. We see the regret taking hold in Britain following on from Brexit with the Labour Party now grappling with this question of whether we should rejoin under Andy Burnham or under Keir Starmer, even it becoming a question for him.
Wes Treating has put it front and centre of his campaign whenever it gets going. Do those issues not strengthen the EU?
I think they do. I think there are good things that happen and bad things that happen. And I think if Britain is moving closer to Europe, that's a very good thing for Europe, for Britain and for Ireland.
Would you want to see them back in?
I would love to see them back in. And I believe that the European reaction to an eventual British request to rejoin would be more positive than is being said in the British media. And I think this is important because if people think that Europe would force Britain to join the Euro, for example, it may prevent the debate getting off the ground.
They'd have to be charged a high price, though, after putting us through 10 years of pain to get them out.
I don't think that they would be given a special deal, but I don't think they would be given a significantly worse deal than they had already because of the geopolitical situation. It's so immensely important for all the countries of Europe that we work together because, as I say, there are good things happening and bad things happening.
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