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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk with Aviva Insurance.
Chapter 2: What is the government's plan for Public Services Cards?
Now, the government is planning to make public services cards an acceptable form of age verification or identity that can be used in places like banks or in credit unions. This is despite the fact that some civil rights groups have raised concerns around it.
Chapter 3: What concerns do civil rights groups have about Public Services Cards?
And we're going to hear about those concerns in a moment. I'm joined in the studio by Malcolm Byrne, Fianna Fáil TD. TJ McIntyre is Associate Professor at the School of Law in UCD.
Chapter 4: What are the implications of using Public Services Cards for age verification?
He's also a Solicitor and Chair of Digital Rights Ireland. And DJ, I want to come to you today and your concerns first. What are you worried about in this context?
So this is a continuation of existing problems.
really with the public services card concept which is that it was introduced as a limited tool for dealing with certain social welfare issues and ever since then there's been a scope creep a government push to turn it into a kind of de facto national id card without any legal basis for that so we've made complaints to the data protection commission about this and in 2019 the dpc upheld our first set of complaints and they said that it was illegal for the state to
demand that people present a public services card to access other services, such as to get driving licenses and so on. And then in the second decision last year, the DPC said that the facial biometric component of the public services card, the requirements that you provide photographic ID, which is then matched against other government databases, was also illegal.
And in fact, they've ordered the state to stop using it for that purpose.
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Chapter 5: How does the Data Protection Commission view the use of Public Services Cards?
So really, the real problem here is that you have a system which from the outset hasn't had a proper legal basis. It's never been clear what it's been intended to do. And I think we should pause and think about what we're trying to do with this.
Can I just go back a step? Because you say that the attempt here is to bring in a national ID card without it having a legal basis. Do you have an issue with a national ID card in principle?
National ID cards can be done well in some jurisdictions where they're designed from the ground up for that purpose. And you have to think about two things there. You have to think about not just the physical piece of plastic itself, but the underlying databases and how they're secured. And we simply haven't had that conversation in Ireland to date.
Because some people might listen to this and think, well, if my public services card was accepted by a bank or by a credit union, that would be a handy thing. I'd have it there in my wallet, you know, in that format and I could hand it over and open my account and I'd welcome that.
So the Data Protection Commission was very clear about the risks presented by this kind of scope creep. You can't either compel people to adopt something like this when it's not required by law or roll it out when you don't have adequate safeguards in place against its abuse, for example, by third parties who might have access to it if you're required to present it for age ID.
I mean, you can think about, for example, the abuses that might be made if when you
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Chapter 6: What are the risks associated with the scope of Public Services Cards?
you were to present it for age ID and somebody were to take your PPS number from it. So you have to think about these in advance rather than just say, well, it might have benefits. Yes, it certainly might have benefits, but there's significant risks that have to be considered as well.
OK, Malcolm Byrne, you've listened to TJ's concerns there about mission creep, about, you know, heading down the road of a national ID card, but just not doing it properly.
Well, good morning, Clare, and good morning, TJ. And yes, I mean, TJ raises valid concerns. In terms of the introduction of any form of ID, it's critical that an individual's data is kept safe. And that if you share, and data protection rules are quite simple, that if you share your data with somebody... They can only use it for the express purposes that you provided.
But this isn't something in terms of what's being proposed now that's being rushed. One of the questions that I, as a politician, often get asked by citizens is, why can I not have a simple car to be able to access more services? And yes, it has to be done properly.
So what's being proposed now is about providing that legal basis that TJ talks about under a social welfare bill that will allow individuals to use a public services card for the purposes of ID, for instance, when they go into a bank. It's optional. It's not forcing anyone to use it.
In the same way as at the moment, some people have to use a passport or they have to use a driving licence, and there are some people who don't have a passport or a driving licence. It's the choice of the individual within this provision as to whether or not they want their date of birth to appear on the ID card for age verification purposes. So that's left up to the individual to determine that.
But what this is really doing is giving individuals access And, you know, another option in terms of whether they're able to access services as a form of ID. And it's not being rushed.
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Chapter 7: How is the proposed legislation addressing the legal basis for Public Services Cards?
This is going to be considered as part of the social welfare bill. It will go through pre-legislative scrutinies and organisations like Digital Rights Ireland and others will have the opportunity to make submissions. But what it will do is it will address that legal challenge.
The concern is that the government will get it wrong again, as they did in the past, and were subject to a very large fine from the Data Protection Commission.
Well, the decision of the DPC is currently being appealed to the High Court. So that's a matter for the courts to make a decision there. What I can say in the case of this piece of legislation specifically, which is, look, there are legitimate concerns and it is very important in terms of all of our data that we can have confidence that it's going to be used safely at any one time.
Are you in favour of us having a national ID card?
I think what's going to be beneficial, I think we do need to talk about the whole concept of our digital identity and our data. And by the way, that includes our face, our voice, our likeness and how we protect that. Because I think it's broader to talk about than a national ID card. But I certainly think it's a case of the more digitalization of records that will help.
Because I think one of the things a lot of people find frustrating is the fact we haven't digitalized yet our health records in Ireland. So if somebody ends up in a hospital, it should be relatively easy if they put in, you know, Malcolm Byrne is my name. This is my PPS number.
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Chapter 8: What safeguards are necessary for using Public Services Cards in banking?
This is my date of birth. They're going to be able to access with my consent, you know, my medical records from my GP and so on to inform it rather than you know, the paper-based trail that we have at the moment. So I think where we have a digital ID with safeguards and where you as an individual can have control over that, I think it's a good thing.
If it improves the delivery of public services to citizens, I think most people will be happy with that. At the moment, we effectively use, when people are asked for their ID, it tends to be a passport or a driving licence tends to be produced. If there is another option that is available, I think that should be made for citizens.
Okay, so this will be a matter of choice for individuals. TJ, what is the issue with that?
Again, I think the problem is more the underlying structure here. And to step back a bit, Malcolm is right in saying identification is a wider issue. And identification as regards to state and online services in Ireland has been split historically between three different departments. So now you have social protection on the one side with the actual PSC card.
You have a deeper public expenditure and reform, which is driving the use of the PSC across the public sector. And then you have the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, which is responsible for electronic ID verification on the internet.
Unfortunately, they're all trying to build what looks like disparate systems on top of an existing system, which has already been found to be illegal by the DPC in several regards.
And I think it's time for a little bit more joined up thinking and going back and asking ourselves if we do want to go down this road of a national ID card, you know, how should we structure that properly so that it complies with the law to begin with?
That sounds like a good idea, doesn't it Malcolm?
Yeah, and I would agree with TJ. I think that there has to be, in terms of any form of identification, in particular on digital identification, there has to be interoperability because the idea should be, and how we need to look at this, is from the perspective of the citizen.
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