Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk.
With Aviva Insurance.
WhatsApp us this morning 087 1400 106 or email the programme clareburn at newstalk.com. Well, the government won its confidence vote last night, but lost a government minister as Michael Healy-Ray announced his resignation. Here was the moment he stepped down.
When I see people begging on the side of the road, when I've seen grown men crying, last night inside the plough bar when I met tractor men, farmers, and when they were telling me how unhappy they were, the leader of the country should have listened.
And because of the fact that I believe this government have left the people of Ireland down, I will be voting no confidence in the leader of the country and I will be tendering my resignation as a Minister of State from now.
In a moment, I'll speak to independent TD for Sligo, Leitrim, and Minister of State, Marion Hark, and also disability campaigner, Tracey Carroll. But I'm joined firstly by Newstalk's political correspondent, Sean Defoe. Sean, good morning to you. It seemed as though this was pretty much a complete surprise to the government.
So talk us through what we know about how it came about yesterday or what led up to Michael Healy-Ray's resignation.
Yeah, it certainly caught the ministers, the Taoiseach and the Tawnis to all on the hop. You could kind of see a build-up to it happening as Mary Butler, the Chief Whip, consulted with Michael Healy-Ray a number of times yesterday in the Dáil Chamber just before he
His speech, and we had all been on alert that Danny Healy-Ray was very likely not to support the government and to vote no confidence.
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Chapter 2: What was the outcome of the government's confidence vote?
And what seems to have happened, I suppose, there's different versions of events. If you take Michael Healy-Ray's version of events, as he put it to us, first of all, was that obviously he was in these talks over the weekend. He was involved in negotiating the half a billion euro deal. package of supports for hauliers and farmers and the excise cut that was voted through last night.
And speaking to ministers who were in that meeting with him and some of those meetings, they said they had no inkling really that he wasn't going to back the government. And that was their impression coming out of it. He'd negotiated the deal and therefore he would vote for it and stick with the government.
But Michael himself says that while that was ongoing, he was speaking to people who were on the protest line, speaking to people in Kerry and with his own background, as he would say himself, of
being a digger driver, of a truck driver, of owning a plant hire business, that he had a great deal of sympathy with them and felt that the government wasn't giving enough and wasn't going to give enough to satisfy them.
He was also quite critical of Micheál Martin's leadership of the entire thing, but of the government in general, saying he has grave reservations about Micheál Martin as Taoiseach. Now, the other track that was going on here is Danny Healy-Ray. And as we said, the expectation was he wasn't going to vote with the government. There was obviously meetings had
within the two sides of the family, the Danny side and Michael's side. And ultimately, there is a feeling that there couldn't be a split in the empire, if you like, that there wasn't going to be a case where the Healy Rays would have one member in and one member out of government and try to campaign on that basis. This is a
A grouping, if not a party, that sends out leaflets with both of their faces on it, joint leaflets telling people in different parts of Kerry what way to vote. Vote number one Danny in this area, vote number one Michael in this area and give your twos accordingly. And that the subsequent split, I suppose, wasn't worth the ultimate damage electorally it could do.
Okay, so let's talk about then how the government looks after this. And in particular, there's a lot of focus on Fianna Fáil, or let's start with Fianna Fáil firstly, because Jim O'Callaghan, as we know, came in for a lot of criticism following his press statement last Thursday about the Defence Forces being ready to help the Gardaí. Is there a sense...
that the notion of him as being the front runner for the next leader of Fianna Fáil, that his position in that regard is damaged now.
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Chapter 3: Why did Michael Healy-Ray resign as a government minister?
didn't really address a lot of the things that his government colleagues even would have wanted to see addressed. There is certainly a bit of a riff there in this idea that he is the, you know, the absolute front runner or the favourite to replace Micheál Martin, I think is damaged. And it's an interesting one because if you do take the long-term view that Micheál Martin is,
one way or another is unlikely to be the leader. And there's various views in Fianna Fáil as to when that will be, be it at the changeover, when he becomes Tóniste, be it ahead of the next election or even later. You now have the two front runners for that, his seeming chosen one in Jack Chambers, incredibly damaged after the presidential election and the Jim Gavin fiasco.
And now Jim O'Callaghan, very, very significantly damaged after this, as well as Micheál Martin himself taking an awful lot of flack.
You'd wonder whether the timeline on the leadership change has shifted now as a result of what happened.
Potentially. I mean, there's no clear favourite now. Maybe eyes have been turning towards Dara O'Brien in some of the people that I have been speaking to. There's others like James Lawless who've said that they want to lead the party in future. Hard to see Norma Foley putting the hand up and Dara Kaliri is maybe not really seen as a leadership type.
They all have problems with them is what I'm saying. And perhaps as a result of that, Micheál Martin clings on longer. I've never really bought into this idea that he's a person who will step away in the way that other Taoiseach have by dint that he lives for the job.
And we have predicted his downfall many, many times that he was going to take a European commissionership, that he was going to do this, that and the other. And even though Michal Martin is very personally damaged by this, ironically, it may see him staying as leader of Fianna Fáil longer.
And it's a strange. But right at the top of the party, there doesn't seem to be the same level of criticism that Fianna Fáil is getting.
No, I think Simon Harris's leadership being newer also just helps in that. You know, he is a newer leader. There's not an immediate challenger to him either that has the credentials. Within Fine Gael, you've seen an awful lot of the heavy hitters step away over the last few years, maybe of Pascal Donoghue. was still on the pitch. Some people would be looking to him now. He's obviously gone.
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Chapter 4: What led to the surprise resignation of Michael Healy-Ray?
OK, well, Sean, stay with us if you can, because I want to bring in Marion Harkin at this point. Good morning to you, Marion.
Good morning, Clare, to all your listeners.
Did you know that Michael Healy-Ray was going to do what he did yesterday?
No, I didn't. There were straws in the wind. I mean, obviously, we heard what Danny had said two days beforehand about the need for change of leadership of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. I mean, that was a very strong statement. And of course, as you know, Danny and Michael had a separate arrangement. They weren't part of our group. I was part of the negotiations for the independent group.
There were three of us negotiated on the programme for government. And it was only when that was complete, I knew Danny and Michael were in it, out to speak to the Taoiseach. But when that was complete, then we realised that, I think, as I'm not sure, was it Danny or Michael said, they were the fourth leg of the stool.
So they got a completely different deal to the one that you got.
Oh, yes, they were. I mean, I worked with Michael. Michael was a great colleague. I sat beside him in the Dáil, a really hardworking minister. And, you know, in that context, I am genuinely sorry to see him go. I think he was a real addition to government, but they had a separate deal, nothing to do with independence, the rest of us, but... We worked together and we worked well together.
What do you make of his decision? Because there are those who will say, well, this is a man who stood by his principles, who was courageous and who walked out when he needed to. There are others who will say, well, Michael Healy-Ray, when the going gets tough, he's gone back down to Kerry, back to his constituency. And he's not fit for national politics and he's not fit for government.
So where do you stand?
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Chapter 5: How does the resignation impact the government and its leadership?
That's affecting him. The carers, disabled people, marginalized communities, vulnerable people, they weren't part of this protest and they were not considered in this protest. If there's direct payment to farmers' holidays, cash payments, we're not getting any of those.
My concern now for this is when people need to look at the broader picture, we're all impacted by not being able to access fuel, the concern of if I don't have fuel in my car and Willow needs to go to the hospital, how do I get there? If I need an ambulance and they're impacted on their journey to my home, how do they get here?
Chapter 6: What are the implications for Fianna Fáil after the confidence vote?
Caring for Willow is keeping her alive. So that is a massive impact to begin with. But then when we look forward into the budget, And everybody is looking for, you know, a piece of the pot. There's only so much money that's going to go around. If all of this money has been invested in direct payments to these people, then where do we fit in this? And has this set the precedent for other protests?
I believe the school buses are on strike in Meath this morning. Thankfully, we don't rely on bus services. So there's, you know, there's the start. Are we going to look at nurses going on strike? Are we going to look at teachers going on strike? Because if the government have bowed down to bullying by this protest, what's next? Who's going to do this next?
You know, is this going to be a domino effect? And the people that are always penalised in this are the most vulnerable. We cannot down tools. What if every carer nationally decided to down tools park our cars, block the motorways, believe our vulnerable people in the hands of the state. What would that look like?
So, Tracey, when you heard Michael Healy-Way saying that he's listened to the workers of Ireland, the people who've soldiered with him over the years, and that he's always looked on himself as the gauge of the people of Ireland, and he saw people in tears at those protests and knew that he couldn't continue in government, what do you think?
I understand why he stepped down. To be honest, he's always been one that's kind of up against the man sort of thing. You know, he's always been very vocal in government. And if he's to stand by what, you know, he was elected for, then I don't think he really had a choice. So I understand why he did it. But I think we're giving too much airtime to this conversation.
I think we need to actually really start looking at the broader picture. You know, what does this mean to the economy? What does this mean? to the marginalised communities, to vulnerable people. What does this mean when we come to the budget? What's next? You know, I don't think the government were very strong in how they managed this.
It went from being a protest to, you know, people getting involved that really just pushed it onto the next agenda. And they held the country to ransom. I mean, people should not be impacted by a protest. I have advocated since Willow was very, very young for carers, for disabled people, I have been in, you know, government conversations. I have been outside Leinster House.
But we have never caused an impact to anybody else. Because, you know... But maybe you should.
You know, is that the lesson that we learn from this? That if you want something, that's what you have to do. What we saw last week.
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