Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk with Aviva Insurance.
Chapter 2: What is the proposed social media ban for under-16s in Ireland?
Now, the Taoiseach has said that Ireland is looking at a ban on social media for under-16s. While over in the UK, the Prime Minister Keir Starmer's ban has been met with very mixed reviews and responses.
Chapter 3: How have similar social media bans been received in the UK?
Let's get more on this now with the host of the For Tech's Sake podcast, Elaine Burke. Elaine, you're very welcome.
Chapter 4: What challenges exist in implementing a social media ban for minors?
I've been reading all sorts of coverage around this media ban, social media ban for under-16s in the UK, and it varies from people welcoming it and saying it's a good idea, finally taking a stand on this and so on, to others saying it's just unworkable and has been proven to be unworkable in other jurisdictions.
What, from your world, in the tech world, are people saying about this response from governments?
Yeah, so I think the unworkability aspect of it is an important one. Reports from Australia where a similar ban was put into place have been that it hasn't been completely effective in terms of restricting the use of under-16s on social media networks. And they have publicly acknowledged that.
Chapter 5: How effective have past social media bans been in other countries?
They've even stopped phrasing it as a ban. They now call it the social media delay. very strategically making it look like they're not failing.
But the UK ministers who are involved in this have been responding to that and they say that they will have a more robust system in place in the UK and we see the London Times reporting that some of the tech companies actually will bear more of the responsibility for stopping under-16s from accessing things like TikTok.
I mean, they can say that and say that that's their intention, but they haven't actually detailed how they plan to do that. So as it currently stands in the UK, they do have a measure in the Online Safety Act about restricting under 18s from accessing, say, pornographic websites. And even that ruling or that law, that legislation allows for something called age estimation.
And that can use like a facial scan or guessing by the amount of years your email account has been active, how old you are, things like that. So age estimation isn't age verification. And they've come out and said that they're going to do this ban. They expect it to be maybe instituted spring next year, but it's next month.
that they plan to start looking at a rapid study on effective measures in terms of age verification. So they might be saying that that's their intention to make this more robust, but they haven't quite figured out what they're going to do there.
OK, and there's a suggestion here that a government ID, digital ID, might be used to verify age. Would that make a difference?
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Chapter 6: What role do parents play in managing children's online access?
So that is something that's already in progress with the government to create this MyGovID. And that's because all EU member states, I believe, have to institute the availability of some sort of digital identification. So what they're working on in terms of age verification in respect of that is what's called a zero knowledge proof verification.
version of verification, which means that you hold information on your phone that's connected to your identification that proves that you are over a certain age. And if you want to verify that with a platform or website or something like that, the technical construction allows for you to
basically verify through connecting to that app that you are over 18 without sharing any additional information. It just basically says vouching for this person being over 18 because it's connected to this app. So that's the most privacy preserving version of this. And that's what's worked on with the MyGov ID. But making that kind of a restriction for browsing online does impact everybody.
If you wanted to be truly effective and to truly rule out any underage use, every time you go online, really, you would have to use it. Like the thing about age restrictions when it comes to things like tobacco and alcohol is because every time you go into a shop physically, you would need to cross that barrier.
Whereas the thing about online systems is we expect you sign up for an account, it's one and done. So you could have a situation where someone finds a workaround for that signup process And once you're in, once you're in, you're in.
And there's something that's not talked about a lot here with these bans and stuff like that is there is a very broad acceptance among parents to allow children quite free, unfettered access to devices. I talk to parents all the time who are very concerned about their kids online and express these concerns to me. But they also allow their kids free and unfettered access to devices.
So what do you think?
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Chapter 7: What privacy concerns arise with digital age verification methods?
What are you saying parents should do then?
I do think that parents do need to really consider what their responsibility is here.
And it's not to put it all on the parents, by the way, because I would say criticism of this UK ban has come strongly from children's organisations, children's rights organisations, saying that what this measure actually does is actually serves businesses and not children, because children and certainly children of that older age group who are maybe 15, 16 and want to have a social life that exists online.
there is something there to be considered as well but it's the free and unfettered use of devices for children who are very young and maybe not prepared for that kind of thing.
I kind of, the way I say to parents is you wouldn't let your kid walk down O'Connell Street late at night but would you let them go online by themselves late at night and it's to think of more like it's not like online is not real life it is actually completely part of our real life now and we do need to take those considerations into account
But also for governments trying to legislate for this and say they're protecting kids. And again, a lot of children in the UK have come out and said this. They don't have spaces to go to in the real world to socialise that don't cost them anything. You know, everything comes at a cost. And then they also don't feel safe. There was children speaking, I think, on the BBC saying,
And there's knife crime in our area and there's threats like that. That means that we are isolated and then socialising online because we are feeling like we have to be indoors to be safe. So there's things like that that also need to be addressed.
It's just really confusing for parents because I understand why the tech industry wouldn't want a social media ban for under 16s because it removes a lot of their...
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Chapter 8: How can better online moderation improve child safety?
clientele. You know, I understand that. I hear, though, from tech experts that it's going to be unworkable. But still, as a parent, you want there to be some controls over what your child can access.
So what the Children's Rights Alliance is, what the research points to on this is something that's desperately needed, not just for children, but for everyone's safety online is for better moderation of platforms, better regulation of this media and As a form of media, it's not like we haven't figured out media regulation in the past.
It's just none of that seems to be applied as rigorously to the online world. And as I said, we have to stop thinking of the online world as some sort of separate entity. Yeah, it is how people navigate their day to day now. So most of the calls are for that to happen. And because if you look at it this way, The platforms do gain more power out of this.
It does actually help their business models because it doesn't stop them from continuing to not moderate content effectively and to have this kind of free for all aspect of content online. It also will create lock-ins for young users. So there's only these safe platforms that you can now interact with. You interact with them from a young age. They can confirm your age.
They can confirm certain information about you. I did say that they're looking at privacy preserving ways to do this. But this does amount to a great data harvesting exercise for platforms which have made a huge profit and business model out of harvesting data. And the younger the users they get, the better it is for them.
So that's one of the big criticisms here is, like I said, this benefits business actually quite a lot. And it takes a lot or puts a lot of the burden on children and on parents as well.
Okay. And listen, there's another story we wanted to touch on as well, Elaine, the European Commission unveiling plans for digital sovereignty. So they're trying to get away from dependence on the tech companies and dependence in particular on the US tech companies. Is that right?
Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of like, it's something that... has been really brought to bear recently because we've actually seen the impacts of what can happen if you are cut off from these things. So there are judges in the International Criminal Court that have been sanctioned by the US and it's for various reasons.
Two have been sanctioned because they approved arrest warrants for Israeli leaders. Two because they rejected an appeal by Israel into the Palestinian war crimes investigation. And those people are really struggling to just live their daily lives.
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