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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The Clare Byrne Show on Newstalk. With Aviva Insurance.
Now it's time for the debrief. We're going to look back on some of the big stories of the week gone by. Today I'm joined by Europe correspondent for Euronews, Shona Murray, Professor of Politics at DCU, Donnach O'Bacon and columnist and author, Carl Kinsland. Thank you all for coming in this Friday morning.
We're going to start with the Oireachtas Committee on Drug Use this week recommending that possession of all drugs for personal use should be decriminalised and that was a proposal not without controversy. Shona, what do you think of that idea?
Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, I'd say that having covered those OCTUS committees, they do have a lot of substance to them, you know, that they have experts there who know what they're talking about, who have experience in dealing with drug addiction and whether or not criminalising people for possession of small amounts of drugs, whether that actually works in terms of deterrence.
So, first of all, you'd sort of take these findings into account. And then the second thing is, I do understand that a person, if they are involved in taking drugs... that the last thing they need is a criminal record if they want to try to turn their life around in the future.
And that includes travelling to other jurisdictions and also in terms of having a criminal record and trying to get a new job. That's a real preventative. And also is it would maybe turn them off and trying out a new life because they think there's too many obstacles in the road ahead.
I obviously understand that it could be a slippery slope because maybe you're turning too much of a blind eye to drug taking.
And it normalises what is ultimately risky behaviour.
Well, it may do, but I think people who want to engage in risky behaviour and taking drugs are going to do that anyway, if they're going down to a festival or whatever it is, if they're young. But I do also think that it's a bit scattergun. I prefer to see much more emphasis on how to deal with people who are in long-term drug abuse, such as people who are of or taking heroin for several years.
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Chapter 2: What controversial recommendation did the Oireachtas Committee on Drug Use make?
And there are obviously countries all around Europe, like the Netherlands, where, you know, you... Similarly, there is a I would say it's not actually called decriminalisation, but it's it's allow it doesn't criminalise people for small amounts of personal quantity of drugs, whether it's cannabis. They separate cannabis from sort of hard drugs.
And it seems to be working in that way because but I just think the emphasis should be more on dealing with people who have drug abuse problems. And I would see maybe I would probably agree that maybe decriminalisation should. for the greater good of people and the future that they can have is something I would endorse. Do you agree with that, Donika?
Because this came off the back of a Citizens' Assembly, didn't it? This recommendation which was examined then by the committee and they have agreed with the Citizens' Assembly.
Yeah, and though I heard this morning that that recommendation may not be implemented, it seems to be having difficulty getting through, I think, the legislature. It has been tried elsewhere.
Chapter 3: What are the implications of decriminalizing drug possession for personal use?
I mean, in Portugal, from 2001, they've decriminalized possession for personal use, which is, I think, enough for 10 days. They're still very – and I think sometimes there are misperceptions around this. They're still very strong on going after people who are involved in the procurement, the supply, traffickers. That's all there.
And it doesn't mean that people can shoot up in the middle of the street. It's still a violation. It's an administrative violation. It's just not a criminal offense. You don't get a criminal record. And I think the attitude is that, look – and I heard a conversation earlier in the show where you were talking about the term junkie and whether people really choose junkies. to become drug addicts.
I mean, we have a very high tolerance towards alcohol in this country, and we treat alcoholism not as an addiction of choice, we treat it as a medical condition in which people need help and people need to be intervened. So I think it's the same approach here about drugs, that people need help.
And this is the challenge, and Shona hinted at it there, is that if you decriminalize it, you should be then shepherding people when you find them misusing drugs to help. But do we have the resources? And the fear is, is that the resources that we have could be overwhelmed if we started having more drug use in the open and then didn't have the resources to help the people.
Well, Carl, some people were horrified at this suggestion this week that this might happen, that, you know, cocaine, for example, ketamine for personal use would be decriminalised. What's your view?
Well, I think the bottom line when it comes to the war on drugs is that drugs won. Drugs won the war on drugs, emphatically. Resounding victory for drugs. And I think that to essentially continue with what we've been doing thus far in terms of criminalisation just fails to acknowledge the reality of drugs. Drugs are very commonplace in Irish society.
I think it's quite notable that there are certain echelons or certain cohorts in society who can discuss drugs and take drugs without any real sense of jeopardy whatsoever. I think it's actually certain classes of people who tend to be targeted for criminalisation when it comes to drug possession.
So what are you saying, the middle class user doesn't get affected by the fact that it is criminal activity?
Yeah, I think much less so. And I think it's notable, you know, both Micheál Martin and Jim O'Callaghan have come out and said that Ireland is already taking a health-led approach to drug use. But if you look at the stats from last year, you'll see it's actually 8,287 prosecutions or charges for drug possession. And if you break that down, that's actually one every hour, every day.
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Chapter 4: How does the approach to drug use in Portugal differ from Ireland?
It was amazing. And now it's Pret-a-Manger, which is so depressing.
I think that's what we need to do with the GPO, obviously, is just turn it into a massive nightclub. Yeah, without But then Jim O'Callaghan would have shut it down.
There would be another Pret-a-Manger. So, no, thank you.
All right, that's that sorted. Now, we wanted to talk about this study that shows that children have ambitions to be social media influencers when they grow up. Is this all your students, Doneca?
No. That's what you're pushing for, though, isn't it? I mean, I wasn't surprised. I mean, you know, as long as humans have been around, they've tried to, you know, be acknowledged, be recognised, to participate in the public sphere.
But the change is that the dream now isn't to be a pop star or an astronaut, which was always the dream, you know, for generations. Now it's, I want to be a social media influencer. Does it depress you at all?
Really, as I said, because it's just a manifestation of a trend in society. I mean, I think we always kind of are suspicious of new technologies. I mean, some would argue, I don't say I subscribe to it fully, that this is kind of the democratization of influence, that instead of having these filters or middle people who decide that you get a platform, you can just go out there.
And if enough people think you've got something to say, they will subscribe, they will follow, and there will be a snowball effect. And that's a good thing. The kind of potential criticism of that is that it's not
particularly well regulated and and therefore you can get people saying all sorts of nonsense and that can attract a lot of attention for the wrong reasons so but the whole celebrity culture and and you know being famous for the sake of being famous uh you know that's been there for a while i mean the thing the elephant in the room perhaps is the social media ban uh which australia has introduced which the uk now uh one of kirsten's last initiatives there's been talk about it here so whether they have access to social media in the in the coming years is is a question yeah
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Chapter 5: What challenges does Ireland face in implementing drug decriminalization?
But the EU is trying to regulate whether it's around services or content for children. And we'll see how far it goes. But I think the other thing is about the the social media thing, you can totally understand why kids might want to engage in it.
But that has to be regulated because you see those kids in Doha in the Middle East, when they were trying to talk about what was happening with the Iran war, they were basically told, we'll take your license away. You get people getting paid $10,000 for saying something nice about Israel. So there has to be huge regulation about that.
Listen, thank you all very much. That was a fascinating chat. Don't go back on. Shona Murray and Carl Kinsella.
The Clare Byrne Show with Aviva Insurance. Weekday mornings at 9 on Newstalk. Conversation that counts.