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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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45-year-old FBI negotiator Byron Sage was mortified. A Vietnam War veteran who had been employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for almost 25 years, he had a wealth of experience when it came to negotiating hostage situations. He'd worked in fugitive, extortion and organised crime investigations and knew how to navigate a crisis.
Sage had spent hours trying to coax David Koresh and his followers from their compound, and had helped put together a surrender plan that looked set to end the disastrous siege that had started under the ATF less than three days earlier.
By the afternoon of Tuesday March 2 1993, both the Branch Davidians and the FBI negotiators were anticipating a peaceful and imminent resolution, with David Koresh promising that everyone inside the compound would surrender in exchange for his message being broadcast on a national television station.
But when Byron Sage called into Mount Carmel just before 6pm to find out what was taking so long, he was met with some devastating news. Koresh's right-hand man, Steve Schneider, informed Sage that David Koresh had changed his mind.
I just talked to them. He's been going through a lot of anguish. And what the guy just went through, I've never seen anything like it before, but he wanted me to remind you to read Psalms chapter 2. And then he wanted me to read to you Revelation 18.
Steve, but what does this... Did you ever read the story of Christ when he hung on the cross where he actually perspirations of drops of blood because of the anguish? Can I just read Revelation 18 to you? In just a minute, Steve. Everything's ready to go right now. But all of a sudden, I mean, he started praying. He gave us his word. I know that. I'm aware of that.
That after the message was played. Yes, but what if there is a higher power than you and I that speaks to an individual? What do you do? That's the question. This is why he said, be aware of who you're dealing with.
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Chapter 2: What were the initial negotiation tactics used by the FBI?
He always has been. What does trust mean to you? Exactly what it means to you. I got commanders and they are losing trust in me.
Steve repeatedly reiterated that Koresh was awaiting further instruction from God and nothing would happen until those instructions arrived. Embarrassed and bitterly disappointed, Byron Sage had to return to his commanders with the news that no one would be leaving Mount Carmel that night.
The anger the FBI leaders felt about David Koresh's last-minute change of mind was reflected in the crackdown that followed. The head of the agency's hostage rescue team informed the siege commander, quote, it's time to teach him a lesson. There was debate amongst the various FBI leaders as to how to proceed from here.
They didn't all see the situation eye to eye, with different units arguing for different approaches. The Hostage Rescue Team, or HRT, was an elite tactical unit trained to take action. Their instincts were typically to rush in and get a situation under control. As one HRT member told journalists from PBS's Frontline program, "...a crime's been committed, and I'm talking murder charges.
You've got to do something about it. You cannot just let those people sit." The HRT's role would be to surround and secure a scene before going in and using force if necessary. This style led to them sometimes being called ninjas. At Mount Carmel, they took up multiple positions from all sides, situating themselves about 300 yards or 275 metres from the building.
In contrast, the FBI's team of negotiators were not working directly at the scene. Their headquarters were in an aeroplane hangar five and a half miles away and their approach was very different from the HRT. Focused on building trust with subjects through talk and a steady pace, their goal was to convince the Branch Davidians to come out, rather than rushing in to take them.
They couldn't actually see what was going on inside the compound and would rely on reports shared by the Branch Davidians and their colleagues instead. Negotiator Gary Nassner was concerned when he overheard Dick Rogers, the head of the HRT, telling siege commander Jeff Jamar that it was time to teach David Koresh a lesson.
Rogers wanted to send his team in, stating, My people can get in and secure that place in 15 minutes. Gary Nassner argued against this, pointing out that Koresh had still been releasing women and children overnight. Perhaps he might continue to release more, even if he wasn't ready to surrender himself.
The negotiators felt that storming in with force would undermine the delicate level of trust they'd worked to build with Koresh and his followers. Ultimately, siege commander Jeff Jamar sided with the negotiators, agreeing it was too soon to send in the HRT. Jamar was acting as special agent in charge of operations in accordance with FBI procedure.
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Chapter 3: How did David Koresh's change of mind impact the negotiations?
As the days went by, the roadside press area grew and was dubbed Media City. There were rows and rows of TV trucks lining both sides of the road. Reporters set up tents and barbecue grills while they waited for something to happen.
Journalist Carlton Stowers later told author Jeff Gwynne, quote, All around Mount Carmel there were so many agents and army guys and negotiators and equipment and tanks and everything that it looked like our government was going to war with another country. Soon, members of the public began showing up at a hill just outside Media City to join the growing circus.
Most were protesters demonstrating solidarity with the Branch Davidians, while others saw a business opportunity. They sold t-shirts and homemade souvenirs like coffee cups, baseball hats and postcards emblazoned with anti- or pro-government messages and dark jokes. One read, "'Mt. Carmel erupts, a message from God, the sinful episode.'" Another read, Hey Vern, weird asshole, come out.
The first letter of each of the last four words was capitalised to spell out Waco. One individual who showed up in support of the Branch Davidians was a 24-year-old army veteran named Timothy McVeigh, who'd driven over from Michigan.
He'd already been angered by the notorious Ruby Ridge standoff less than a year earlier and saw the Waco siege as another example of government overreach and oppression. Sitting on the hood of his car, McVeigh sold bumper stickers with messages such as Ban guns, make the streets safe for a government takeover and Fear the government that fears your gun.
Meanwhile, FBI negotiators continued their efforts with David Koresh. Often, their calls with him turned into religious sermons, with Koresh preaching for up to an hour at a time about God's plans for the end of the world and the unlocking of the seven seals. Some of the negotiators took to calling these one-sided conversations Bible Babble.
They interjected and tried to return Koresh's focus to the more practical and immediate matters at hand. When pressed as to when he might emerge with his followers, Koresh replied, ''I'm dealing with my father now, not your systematic, bureaucratic system of government.'' The negotiators expressed their concerns about Koresh's bullet wounds and general health.
Koresh suspected that he'd lost about three pints of blood, but was doing alright. He was being treated by one of the Branch Davidians, who was a nurse. She reported that he was doing well, his temperature was normal, and his complexion was good. The other Branch Davidians who'd sustained injuries in the botched raid were also doing fine.
Despite Koresh's refusal to leave Mount Carmel, he did agree to send out a couple more children. A 12-year-old boy left the compound on Wednesday March 3 and an 11-year-old boy followed the next day. By the end of the siege's fifth day, 21 children in total had been released, ranging in age from 5 months old to 12 years.
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Chapter 4: What strategies did the FBI consider for resolving the standoff?
She wanted to be reunited with her surviving family and Koresh was fine with letting her go as he was already annoyed with her for smoking after the ATF raid. Cathy later told author Jeff Gwynne, ''He used my smoking for an excuse for kicking me out. He also told me I'd be a beacon of the message to inform the world.''
Cathy left the compound late that morning with her hands up and was interviewed extensively by the FBI. She assured them there were no suicide plans, but added that many other people inside did want to leave. They couldn't do so because Koresh had a hold over them.
The FBI filmed Kathy's emotional reunion with her three-year-old son and sent the tape into the compound, hopeful it might inspire others to surrender. Another Branch Davidian left the same day, a 19-year-old Australian man named Oliver Gyrifus. Steve Schneider informed negotiators that a few more were planning to leave the next day.
But later that night, siege commander Jeff Jamar ordered that the compound's electricity be switched off again to prove to the Branch Davidians that the FBI controlled their earthly lives, not David Koresh. This time, the power wouldn't be turned back on again. David Koresh and Steve Schneider were furious. They told the FBI negotiators that turning off the power had been an act of bad faith.
Privately, the negotiators agreed with them. it seemed highly unlikely that more Branch Davidians were going to leave. Steve said that their people were freezing cold. He again accused the government of wanting to kill them all and then burn the building down.
From the negotiators' perspectives, it felt as though whenever they were making incremental progress, the HRT took an aggressive approach that undermined their hard work. As far as the HRT was concerned, the negotiators themselves seemed to have been taken hostage by the Branch Davidians.
Their progress seemed painfully slow to the tactical unit, who were accustomed to wrapping things up within a couple of days. Described by an analyst who worked with the FBI as testosterone-driven, the HRT agents believed decisive action could likely draw the standoff to a close quite swiftly.
Frustration grew to such a point that one member of the HRT graffitied an outhouse they were using with the words, Sage is a Davidian, in reference to negotiator Byron Sage. Although the power in the compound had been cut off, the phone line remained open and the negotiators continued trying different tactics. They had Kathy Schroeder call in to speak to her fellow church members.
She reassured the branch Davidians that the FBI was treating her well and hadn't charged her with anything. They'd only asked general questions and had been super. This didn't have the desired effect, with both Koresh and Steve Schneider becoming upset with Cathy for not being a spokesperson for them.
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Chapter 5: How did the FBI's approach evolve during the siege?
Steve Schneider refused to meet with negotiators again the following day and he and Koresh argued with Byron Sage over the phone. Are you going to kill me? Koresh asked. No, Sage replied, before the call ended abruptly. Deciding they needed to speak to all Branch Davidians more directly, the negotiators began broadcasting messages over a loudspeaker system the FBI had set up outside the compound.
This would allow everyone inside the compound to hear them. They broadcast tapes recorded by Branch Davidians who'd left the siege. These upbeat recordings featured positive messages about their interactions with law enforcement.
The negotiators also arranged for a package full of documents to be dropped off at the compound, including letters from attorneys willing to represent Koresh and others, a letter from the Christian Broadcasting Network, and an audio tape from a theologian who'd listened to Koresh's sermons.
These tactics seemed to work, with Koresh saying that more people would soon be coming out, and they would eventually be followed by everyone else. Over the next few days, nine adults left the compound, including Sheila Martin, the wife of Wayne Martin. Sheila was allowed to call her husband in the compound, telling him, Everything went well. The ride was bumpy.
Wayne gave a reply that the FBI considered cryptic. It could be bumpy later too. The negotiators were encouraged by the steady stream of surrenders. They urged Steve to send out more people, but he said he couldn't as Koresh was sleeping and had to be consulted before anyone else could leave. However, everything seemed to indicate that everyone would be out soon.
At around the same time, Chief Negotiator Gary Nasner learnt of a plan that would take the standoff into a whole new phase. Casefile will be back shortly. Thank you for supporting us by listening to this episode's sponsors. Thank you for listening to this episode's ads. By supporting our sponsors you support Casefile to continue to deliver quality content.
FBI Special Agent in Charge Dick Schwein had recently arrived from the Texas city of El Paso to assist Jeff Jamar and other leaders. SAC Dick Schwein wore a dark blue SWAT-style uniform, where the other SACs typically wore civilian clothing. Chief Negotiator Gary Nasner would later describe SAC Schwein as…
A caricature of the gung-ho type, he seemed surprisingly cavalier and flippant about the process. Once I heard him say in passing, ''No use trying to talk to these bastards, we've just got to go in there and cut their balls off.'' On the same day that Steve Schneider said he had to wait for Koresh to wake before releasing any more people, Gary Nesner learnt of a plan SAC Schwein had proposed.
He wanted to use the loudspeakers to broadcast music into the compound. According to Nasner, this was an idea that SAC Schwein had gotten from his time serving in the US Army. During the invasion of Panama, American soldiers had tormented military dictator General Manuel Noriega with loud recordings in an effort to force him out of hiding.
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Chapter 6: What led to the decision to use tear gas on the Branch Davidians?
They managed to get the tape to de Guerin, who agreed to take it to the Branch Davidians compound. On Sunday April 4, Koresh and his followers sat in the dining hall as de Guerin played the tape aloud. The room was silent as everybody listened. Although they didn't believe the scholars were as knowledgeable as David Koresh, they were positive about their message and felt a new sense of hope.
Koresh did as well, wondering if perhaps this recording was the message from God he'd been waiting for. He couldn't provide specifics just yet, but he informed his lawyer that he and all of his followers would surrender after Passover, an eight-day Jewish holiday that the Branch Davidians observed.
In 1993, it began on the following day of Monday April 4 and concluded a week later on Tuesday April 13. It seemed like the siege might finally be drawing to a close. The next couple of days saw little communication from those within the compound. Outside, the FBI continued to make noise as they played loud music and unpleasant sounds over the loudspeakers.
They refused to stop, even when Steve Schneider called and threatened to cut off communication permanently. On Tuesday April 6, Steve also clarified that the Branch Davidians' dates for Passover were slightly different to those typically observed. They would begin Passover that day at sundown and observe it for the next seven days.
When the FBI asked if that meant they'd be coming out on the eighth day, Steve Schneider said no. Koresh was still waiting for God to tell him a date. They had said they'd leave after Passover, not immediately after. David Koresh confirmed these dates the next day, and when asked if he would come out after that, he didn't answer, instead embarking on a long religious sermon.
The negotiators phoned the compound repeatedly over the next few days, but most of their calls went unanswered. On Friday April 9, Steve Schneider sent something out of the compound for FBI negotiators to read. It was a letter dictated by David Koresh to Steve's wife, Judy, who'd typed it up despite her injured hand. It opened with the words, "'Friends, I offer to you my wisdom.
I offer to you my sealed secrets. How dare you turn away from my invitations of mercy?
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Chapter 7: What were the immediate consequences of the tear gas deployment?
I know your sins and inequities. None are hid from me. When will you ever fear and be wise?' Your only saviour is my truth. My truth is the seven seals. It had been written from the perspective of God as though Koresh had channelled the letter from a higher source. The letter ended by advising, Learn from David, my seals, or, as you have said, bear the consequences.
I forewarn you, the Lake Waco area of Old Mount Carmel will be terribly shaken. The waters of the lake will be emptied through the broken dam. The heavens are calling you to judgment. Please consider these tokens of grave concern.
Yahweh Koresh The FBI interpreted this final paragraph as threatening to blow up the Lake Waco Dam, though it was unclear how he would do this while holed up in Mount Carmel. Two more letters were sent out the next day, riddled with scriptural passages and more prophecies. On the night of Tuesday April 13, Dick DeGaran decided to call into the compound.
As Koresh's lawyer, he could circumvent the blocks other outsiders faced. The Branch Davidians Passover was concluding the following day and de Guerin wanted to see what Koresh was thinking. Would he be coming out soon as everybody hoped? Steve Schneider told de Guerin that Koresh couldn't come to the phone as he was writing another letter.
It was sent out the next day and was addressed to de Guerin. It read, Hello Dick. As far as our progress is concerned, here is where we stand. I have related two messages from God to the FBI, one of which concerns present danger to people here in Waco. I was shown a fault line running through the Lake Waco area. An angel is standing in charge of this event.
Many people here in Waco know that we are a good people, and yet they have shown the same resentful spirit of indifference to our warnings of love. I am presently being permitted to document in structured form the decoded messages of the seven seals. Upon the completion of this task, I will be freed from my waiting period."
I hope to finish this as soon as possible and to stand before man to answer any and all questions regarding my actions." Koresh went on at some length, sharing his desire for people to be saved and describing what he saw as his destiny to share the truth.
He concluded the letter by again prophesying that an earthquake would hit Waco and shake some sense into the people, before adding what he planned to do with his finished manuscript. Quote, I will demand that the first manuscript of the seals be given to you. Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to have copies for examination. I will keep a copy with me
As soon as I can see that people like Jim Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I will come out, and then you can do your thing with this beast. We are standing on the threshold of great events. The seven seals, in written form, are the most sacred information ever discovered.
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