Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day 32. Tonight, the very latest in the search for Mrs. Guthrie. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. We still believe in a miracle. Nancy Guthrie was forced out of her own bed. 84 years old and you're pulled out of bed.
Chapter 2: What updates are there on the search for Nancy Guthrie?
41 minutes in the home. Every single contact leaves a trace. Fibers, fingerprints, DNA. You don't see any blood pools. That gives me hope that this person is alive. This criminal did mess up somewhere and they will be caught. We still believe that she can come home. Have you been able to identify the car that drove past at 2.36 a.m.? No. No. But you are looking to identify it?
We're looking at that vehicle as well as hundreds of thousands of other vehicles that were out driving that time of day. Is this really something we should be looking at? Look, what I would tell you is this. We're aware of it, and we're looking into it, just like any other piece of evidence. This is Sheriff Nanos from our friends at the Today Show.
Straight out to Crime Stories Investigator Dave Mack. Dave, what happened? Nancy, there are a number of things that have really transpired in the last 24 hours or so about the case in general. Former FBI investigator has come out and said this case is nowhere close to cold. It's a red-hot case.
She actually explains, Jennifer Koffendefer, explains how there are so many things happening with the case right now. Some people have looked at the move from Tucson to Phoenix by the FBI as a negative, as the case is cooling off. It's actually the opposite. There is so much video evidence that has to be called through.
We're talking five, 10,000 pieces of video that have to be gone through at this point. There's still DNA that has to be collected even. There's a lot going on in this case.
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Chapter 3: What evidence is being sought in Nancy Guthrie's case?
It is nothing close to a cold case. Now, there are some other things happening too. We've got the vehicle that has been filmed on the Ring camera at 2.36 a.m., eight minutes after it is believed that Nancy Guthrie was taken from her home. Now, at first, the FBI said, no, that has nothing to do with the case. A couple of days later, yeah, it has everything to do with the case.
Now, investigators are trying to identify what type of car it is, and they're really digging in. There's a lot of information they've found, such as the car has a sloped back. It has odd rear brake lights and things like that. So that case, that part of the case, rather, is really being looked at in a big way by investigators. The backpack.
You know, we've talked about the backpack seen on the video on the front porch at length. We know that the backpack is sold exclusively brand new at Walmart. And the backpack does appear to be a relatively new backpack. The backpack seen on the alleged kidnapper, suspected kidnapper.
Nanos, Sheriff Nanos was going on a tear about this the other day, talking about how backpack might not have been sold at Walmart. You know, the backpack could have been bought by somebody who then sold it on eBay. I mean, which, yeah, that's a possibility. It could have been bought anywhere. But still, we are looking at items such as the backpack itself.
as well as, if you remember, remember the holster that's hanging down just below the waistline? We know that that particular holster only sold at Walmart. That backpack, those are backpack, exclusively sold brand new at Walmart.
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Chapter 4: How is digital evidence playing a role in the investigation?
So there are some links there, but Nanos wanted to point out not necessarily where it might have come from. But, you know, Sheriff Nanos did say he believes, he believes, We're very close to finding the suspect in this case. And finally, Annie Guthrie's car. Looks like law enforcement will be returning Annie Guthrie's car to her in the next few days.
Susanna Ryan joining us, Lab Director, Forensic DNA Analyst at Pure Gold Forensics and Forensic DNA Consultant at Ryan Forensics. Susanna Ryan, what do you make of that? Right. Well, I can't say exactly why they've held it so long, but certainly any vehicle they get, they're going to be looking for lots of different forensic evidence. And, you know, that could be latent prints.
It could be trace evidence. could be DNA. But as you said, of course, with this particular vehicle, it would not be surprising at all, of course, to see Nancy Guthrie's DNA in the vehicle. We know that she has ridden in the vehicle. This is her relative's vehicle. So it would not be surprising to see her DNA pretty much anywhere in that car. What might be surprising is if we start seeing blood.
If there's blood maybe in the back seat of the vehicle, if there's blood in the trunk of the vehicle, if there's blood that has been transferred somehow to, let's say, the driver's side floor mat or the gas pedal or the brake pedal, somewhere that it's a lot more difficult to explain why someone's blood or DNA might be present.
So I think that that's probably one of the things they were looking for. Again, I'm sure there's other digital forensic type of evidence and trace evidence, things like that, but it does sound like at this point they've completed that testing. Susanna, a lot is being made of DNA tonight. What do you make of it and where do we stand right now?
You know, it would not be surprising to me at all that there are multiple contributors to some of these samples collected from the home, right?
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Chapter 5: What insights do investigators have about the timeline of the crime?
So we're talking now about skin cell DNA, often called touch DNA. So DNA that is transferred just by someone coming into contact with an item of evidence. Just because one person has touched it doesn't mean that multiple other people have not touched the same item.
You know, if we're talking about a doorknob, something like that, where anyone who touches that has the chance of transferring not only their own DNA, but whatever else happened to be on their hands at the time. We're constantly picking up DNA. Everything that we come into contact with, we have a chance of picking up other people's DNA from those contacts.
And then we can further transfer that DNA. So a lot of times when we talk about these sort of transfer or touch DNA samples, we're talking about multiple individuals. And the thing is, there's no way to separate those different components of DNA prior to going through the analysis process, right? We can't, I wish we could, I wish we could like target and say, okay, we just want this person's DNA.
We're only looking for the male DNA or, you know, something like that. And we really can't, short of, you know, if we have a sexual assault case, you can separate out sperm cell versus epithelial cell DNA, but otherwise you can't. Whatever is on that sample, when you start the analysis process,
And you break open all of the cells and then you just kind of have this, you know, alphabet soup of DNA that is present. And then you move forward with it. You get a DNA profile and whether it's a mixture, whether it's single source, great. But usually it's a mixture of two, three, four, maybe even more people.
And so at that point, there's no way to isolate out one person's DNA unless they're a clear major contributor. There's more of one person's DNA than anybody else's. But otherwise, that's why mixtures are so difficult. And that's why they're having difficulties in this case, because they're probably low level, maybe not even complete profiles with multiple contributors.
That's basically the worst type of sample to try to work with. Where is Nancy Guthrie, Savannah Guthrie's mother still missing? And the scene is shambolic. A pizza guy, a pizza guy drives right up to the house, the crime scene and goes up to the door to deliver pizza in the midst of this investigation. Why is it still not blocked off?
If and when this case ever does go to trial, there's going to be hell to pay. H-E-L-L. Hell to pay on ice skates because you've got a pool cleaning team coming through. You have pizza delivery. You've got people sneaking up to the front porch, taking pictures of Nancy Guthrie's blood for Pete's sake. I would flip if someone was taking pictures of my mom's blood on the front porch.
You've got the first team coming in, failing. You've got the FBI finally joining in after being blocked by Nanos. They come in. You know, what this means evidentially is that every single person that went into that scene is going to have to be ruled out of DNA. Straight to Dave Mack joining us, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave Mack, who is getting swabbed?
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Chapter 6: What forensic evidence has been found at Nancy's home?
When asked, is abducted too strong of a word to use, the Pima County Sheriff says no. She was dragged out of her home, this 84-year-old grandma, in the night. Our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed. And every hour and minute and second and every long night has been agony since then. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
There has been a lot of speculation that it's actually victim blaming that Nancy Guthrie went to the front door and allowed her kidnapper to come in. Nothing could be further from the truth. Dave, we now know that in those critical 41 minutes that 41 minutes, at least one perp was in Nancy Guthrie's home. And this is an important fact and it can prove something. It's probative.
We now know that Nancy Guthrie was forced out of her own bed, lying there asleep around two o'clock in the morning. An 84 year old woman. What do we know? We know that when Savannah Guthrie posted the video, it was so shocking that a lot of people missed what she said. She said that her mother was taken from her bed in the middle of the night. That tells us everything that we originally thought
that the intruder or intruders came into the home snuck into her room awakened her out of a dead sleep and took this 84 year old grandmother out of her own bed what it does also tell us nancy is that we might have forensic evidence left behind on the bed in the bedroom on the floor on the nightstand there's
No, any wonder of places where our kidnapper or kidnappers could have touched, dropped, felt anything. But again, taken out of her bedroom. Think about that for a minute. 84 years old and you're pulled out of bed. It's not an easy trip. Joining us, Misty Gillis, DNA expert investigative genetic genealogist at Parabon Nanolabs. This is one of their specialties. At Parabon, they focus on
very difficult cases like a minuscule amount of DNA, degraded DNA, a mixture of DNA. When you are, Misty, thank you for being with us. When you hear the latest that Nancy was taken out of her bed, forcibly taken, what DNA possibilities does that open up in your mind? That opens up the possibility of there being trace amounts of DNA found in that bedroom area.
Like it was said, possibly it was a nightstand that was touched. Possibly the forcible removal of Nancy had left trace DNA in that bedroom area. There must be a reason investigators are exactly saying that it was the bedroom she was taken from versus answering her door. You know, I'm thinking through what we know now. What did the perp do in those critical 41 minutes?
First of all, we know he got in. We see him coming in the front door. We know that when he left, the door remained unlocked. We don't know if it was locked when he entered. When you think and try to retrace what the perp did upon entering Nancy Guthrie's home, I want to focus on getting evidence. For instance, if Nancy Guthrie had hardwood or carpet, Tablecloths or no tablecloths.
Tchotchkes sitting around little items and figurines or none. A dog, a cat or no dog or cat. All of these things equal evidence. Explain, Misty. You're going to want to look at those more porous samples. There's a device called an MBAC that's essentially a wet vacuum that will pull DNA and forensic evidence from those porous surfaces.
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Chapter 7: How does DNA evidence affect the investigation?
So I guess you're saying that with certain DNA, such as saliva, sperm, urine, you would use the alternate light source. But for touch DNA, it does not fluoresce. So you would swab the likely suspects, the doorknob, light switch, furniture, something that's been moved in the home. Do I have it so far? Yes, 100%. Dave Mack with me, Crime Stories investigative reporter.
Dave Mack explained about the two gloves found a little over a mile in Nancy Guthrie's own neighborhood. Law enforcement walked along the sides of the road looking through brush and rocks about a mile and a half. from Nancy Guthrie's home, a mile and a half from her home on the side of the road in some brush, first glove was found.
Second glove found nearby in similar situation, like it was just tossed out of a car driving on the road. What we were showing you is from our friends at Fox News. I want to see the day shot, and I want to show that to all of our guests. This is also from our friends at Fox News. Straight out to Nima Rahmani joining me, former federal prosecutor turned trial attorney.
Nima, I like this shot because you can see them going in couples in daylight, and you can see exactly where they're looking. They're kicking, literally beating the bushes along a roadside. There were, as Dave Mack said, scores of them out in pairs looking all up and down the roadways in Estrada, Tucson and Campbell and beyond.
Then suddenly, at the same time, they find not one but two black gloves, highly similar to the ones worn by the intruder, the kidnapper. I'm wondering if they got a tip. Nima, that someone saw someone throw something out of a window. They don't know what roadway, but they're looking all the roadways. See that? What do you make of it, Nima? There is no coincidence in criminal law.
No, and we know, Nancy, that they've received thousands of tips, some of them, of course, uncorroborated, but they have to chase these down. And the fact that they're there searching that area, you're right, likely means they received a tip. And the gloves, they are also very important. Obviously, you can get DNA from a glove, but sometimes you can even get fingerprints. The FBI is involved.
It's going to be sent to the best crime lab there is, and hopefully they can get something off this glove. And even if it's not DNA in the database, you know Nancy better than anyone.
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Chapter 8: What challenges do investigators face with mixed DNA?
With today's familial DNA searches, you can find people based on their family members. So if there's anything on these gloves, this could be the evidence that breaks the case wide open. We learn that there is DNA that has been recovered inside Nancy Guthrie's home. And seemingly it said that there's another glove in there. Dave Mack, what did we learn?
Learned that inside the home, Nancy, multiple gloves, plural gloves were found inside the home. You know, we've been talking about the glove that was found outside during the search about a mile and a half from Nancy's home. But we're finding out that gloves, plural, were found inside the home and were apparently shipped to Florida for analysis.
Tammy Ballard joining us, DNA crime scene consultant, crime scene investigation and reconstruction expert. What other DNA or evidence, fiber evidence, could be found in the home of Nancy Guthrie? Yes, fiber evidence, that's different, a little tougher to come by, but hopefully something is very well processed. But also fingerprint evidence is a big one.
Hopefully they did a lot of fingerprint evidence, potentially. I know there are gloves involved. The big one I would be looking for as well is... the blood source that's on the front porch, does that start and begin in the household? And if so, was Nancy able to fight back? Do we have two bleeders? So you can't take any of that blood for granted.
You've got to look at bloodstain patterns and see if there's some outlier that actually could be from the perpetrator. Maybe she was able to fight back pretty well. You just don't know and you can't take anything for granted. So it's basically process everything and collect everything that could be a potential. To Scott Eicher joining us, digital forensics expert, formerly with the FBI.
What do you make of it? You were also a homicide detective. What else do you believe they found in the home? Touched DNA, maybe fiber, a hair. All it takes is one hair. One. I agree. Hopefully they process that house very well, but you got to remember when they first went there, it's a missing person.
And then later on, it turned out to be, okay, this could be a kidnapping with ransom and now the video. So initially the police departments and they're walking through the house, you know, look, looking in, you know, the basement and the attic in the every room and making sure she's just not there again with the property doing the same thing.
So you got to remember, I think when we were talking about this DNA, the FBI was called in a little bit later, a day or two later to try to help or the FBI came to ask if they could help. So at that time, maybe the sheriff's department was on their own saying, hey, we should probably take this glove that we found in the house and send it to the lab.
Even if we do get some DNA and it's put into CODIS, We're not sure if he's going to match anybody that's known. In the Golden Gate Killer case, Joseph DeAngelo, one of the first of its kind, familial DNA, genetic genealogy DNA. Hey, that video we were just showing you is from 12 News, so that's a possibility.
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