Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Samantha Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing day 33. How is this possible in this day and age with tens of thousands of tips, video clips, Why is she still missing? Where is Nancy Guthrie? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
Our mom was taken in the dark of night from her bed.
Chapter 2: What are the latest updates in the search for Nancy Guthrie?
And every long night has been agony since then. Whoever knows about Nancy Guthrie's whereabout, that sees that and does not act, must have a heart attack. Please be the light. Joining us now is a special guest, Pat Byrne. And I want to introduce you to Pat. He is a sleep expert and the founder of the Byrne Fatigue Consulting Group.
He is the author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon. And he has analyzed the Nancy Guthrie case from his point of view. Mr. Byrne, thank you for being with us. I'd like to just start off with a general question as to your analysis of the Nancy Guthrie kidnap. It was very interesting.
So here's an elderly woman who's apparently asleep at 2 o'clock in the morning and was taken by some intruder. And so what I started to think about was what's going on in her brain? What sleep stage was she at?
Chapter 3: Why is Nancy Guthrie still missing after 33 days?
And how did that affect her emotions and her thought process once she woke up? So our human brains do not go from fully asleep to fully awake. There's this process and it's called sleep inertia. There's this process of waking up. And that depends partly on how you're woken up and what sleep stage you're at.
So at 2 a.m., she was probably either in a very deep sleep or in what's called REM sleep, which is rapid eye movement sleep, which is where we dream. And the interesting thing about that is if she was in a deep sleep,
um then she would be um she would be incredibly confused she wouldn't know where she was she wouldn't know what time it was she wouldn't know who she was with this confusion would go on for at least two to three minutes or longer and Interesting thing is she also has a pacemaker, I understand. So she has a heart condition.
And elderly people with heart conditions who are woken up suddenly from a deep sleep are very high risk of a heart attack. So that concerned me immediately. And the other aspect too is if she was in REM sleep, she was dreaming, when we dream, our bodies freeze. And so you can't you can't move. So if he walked into the room and she was dreaming a desert, he could just pick her up.
She couldn't even move. And then she would get into some kind of a she'd get into a panic mode and get very confused. She wouldn't be able to even say anything or be able to fight back. Oh, gosh, Pat. So much of what you're saying is is so upsetting, but I know You're the expert, and these are the facts. But I've got to figure out what, if anything, is probative. What can I deduce?
What can I learn? What can I prove from what you're saying? Well, for one thing, you stated for multiple reasons that she would be at a high risk of a heart attack. Could you revisit that and explain your thinking? Well, the research just shows that elderly people who even without heart conditions are at a high risk of heart attacks and being violently and woken up from a deep sleep.
So that's what the scientific research shows. And so you add on the fact that she has a pacemaker, which means she has a heart condition, makes it worse. You know, it's an interesting point about what you just made. With me, it was instinctive ever since the twins were born that I, even to this day, they're 18, I wake them up gently.
I don't fly open the door and yell, wake up or anything like that. And especially with my mom who lives with us, she's 94. It's again, instinctive not to shout someone awake or scare them awake.
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Chapter 4: What insights does sleep expert Pat Byrne provide about the case?
But you're saying that when someone is abruptly woken in their sleep, especially an elderly person, it increases the risk of a heart attack. And we know she's a heart patient. She's got a pacemaker among other things. Absolutely. Yeah. And particularly if she was woken up in a very light sleep, when she was just starting to fall asleep, that might be different.
But at 2 a.m., she's going to be in a deep sleep. You mentioned a term called sleep inertia. What's that? So that's that foggy brain feeling you get when you wake up in the mornings, right? And it's that period of time between being fully asleep and fully awake. And so your reaction time is slower. Your thinking isn't very clear.
And so it often takes anywhere from 15 minutes to half an hour to ā to get your foggy brain cleared up so you can actually function during the day.
And even people like firefighters who may be sleeping in the fire hall and then the alarm goes off and they have to jump up and get in the vehicle and drive, they need to wait a bit to get their brains cleared before they get in the vehicle to drive. So that's common across for everybody. Sleep inertia is just normal. You know, it's another question. Pat Byrne is joining us, everyone.
Sleep expert, founder of the Byrne Fatigue Consulting Group, author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat, for instance, every morning when I wake up at 5 a.m., I'm jump up and take off, you know, like a bat out of hell thinking, Oh, I've got to feed my mom. I've got to get the children's breakfast ready. I've got to do this.
It's just a whole, whole set of chores before my day even really starts. And sometimes I'm halfway to the kitchen before I really am awake. And I have to stand there thinking, okay, what do I need to do right now? What am I doing first? Is that, what is that? Is that the sleep fog you're talking about? That's sleep inertia. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm certainly not inert.
I shoot out like a bullet. How would this affect what happened to Nancy? Okay, let me back up a little bit because when you get up at 5 a.m., the chances are you're probably waking up from a light sleep, not a deep sleep. And so the sleep inertia is less pronounced when you wake up from a light sleep than you do from a deep sleep. And so in terms of the Nancy Guthrie situation is that
She was most likely in a deep sleep at 2 a.m. in the morning. So I'm pretty confident that she was at a fairly high risk for a heart attack. Oh, gosh. The reason I'm thinking through everything you're saying so carefully is because I wonder what happened at her doorstep, Pat. Was she stumbling because of sleep inertia and thawing?
And then we see those, but clearly to me, are low velocity blood drops. It's not high velocity from a gunshot wound. It's not throwback from a blow and then you bring back the weapon and you get cast off. It's none of those things. It looks as if she's standing there out of it, and blood drops.
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Chapter 5: How does sleep inertia affect a person's reaction during a crisis?
Why would he have picked between 2 and 3 a.m. to do this? What is magical about 2 to 3 a.m.? One of the reasons people commit crimes, I think, at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning is because there aren't a lot of other people around. Most other people are sleeping. But also...
You know, if he has any knowledge at all, he would know that she was probably sleeping and that he could easily walk around the house and easily go and grab her, right? Because she's probably asleep. Yeah. Well, another aspect of this, Pat Byrne, is that if he has a family, a girlfriend, a roommate, did they not notice he was gone?
way into the night in the early morning hours, which should be a tip off to anyone that has heard about the 1.2 plus million dollar reward. Joining us tonight, special guest Pat Byrne of the Byrne Fatigue Consulting Group. and author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat, thank you, and please join us again with your insight. My pleasure. Hi there, everybody.
I wanted to come on and just share a few thoughts as we enter into another week of this nightmare.
Um, I just want to say, first of all, thank you so much for all of the prayers and the love that we have felt my sister and brother and I, and that our mom has felt because we believe that somehow some way she is feeling these prayers and that God is lifting her even in this moment and in this darkest place. We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help.
Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, trying to find her. She was taken and we don't know where. And we need your help.
So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, if you hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement, we are at an hour of desperation and we need your help. It boggles my mind that they would return the home back to the family right now.
Nobody in the family lives there. There's no reason to turn the house back over yet. They've still got to find who did this. Dr. Bethany Marshall, let's just proceed with the belief that Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Okay. Who in their right mind could keep an 84-year-old woman imprisoned in a bedroom or an apartment or who knows, a farmhouse, a cellar, a basement?
Those are the things that Savannah and her siblings, it's their nightmares, where is mom? But what type of mentality, what person, what man could do that? somebody who's obsessed with her because they see her as a mark. They see her as somebody that they are going to profit off of, and that delights them. That makes her very exciting and captivating to them.
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Chapter 6: What role does DNA play in the investigation of Nancy Guthrie's disappearance?
Guthrie. And the other thing, when I see some guy fiddling with a camera at 5 a.m. in a neighborhood, probably where there are many seniors, it makes me wonder, is there some slim possibility that this was not targeted? That somebody was going from doorstep to doorstep trying to find somebody that they could... abduct, kidnap, something like this.
It just opens up more questions to me rather than resolving them. You know, you said something, Bethany, and it made me think just in that moment, and I'm sure you can verbalize this better than me, but... Whoever's got Mrs. Guthrie, she's not even real to them. They're thinking about potentially Savannah and getting her money.
And Mrs. Guthrie is just like a pawn, a thing to them for them to get that money. However, I'll tell you something, Nancy, she may be a pawn, she may be a thing, but they've been thinking about her for a long, long time. Reminds me of a patient who came in and could not stop talking about his grandma, obsessed about his grandma.
And I finally realized he was obsessed with her because he was trying to drain her bank account. So there was a lot of talking about it before I finally realized that he was actually using the therapy to commit a crime. Obviously, I stopped seeing him.
So there's somebody in some household out there who has a father, a brother, a son, somebody in their lives who has been talking about Nancy Guthrie for a long, long time. That could be a very important behavioral clue in terms of finding the perpetrator. What else should people be looking for?
Because I believe a case like this could be cracked by a girlfriend, a wife, a sister, a mother, a friend, a neighbor that realizes something is off. Oh, well, promises of wealth. I'm going to take you on a big trip. I'm going to buy you a new car. Our ship is coming in. Preoccupation with the news, wanting to talk about all the little tidbits that have come out.
I don't think that what we should or family members should be watching for is somebody who's actually avoiding talking about this.
but somebody who is quite captivated by it because you know when you have a mark when you're a perpetrator and you're going to benefit financially from something you want to talk about it all the time so i think it's going to be in the conversations people are hearing in their households think about if you're sitting around the dinner table with your family
All of a sudden, there's one family member that says, oh, let's talk about the Guthrie case. What do you think about older people living alone? Oh, do you think the ransom is going to be paid? Do you think Nancy is still alive? An excited conversation, not sad, excited conversation. That's what family members, girlfriends, wives, children, whatever, that's what they need to be watching out for.
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Chapter 7: How are ransom notes impacting the investigation?
They're aghast at what has happened. They all have a mother or a grandmother, many of them that live with them or that are living alone. And this strikes fear in their heart. It's really interesting the way you delineated between being excited and almost giddy about it as opposed to being upset and concerned about it, Bethany. That is absolutely right.
And that goes to the third ransom note, right? Is that in this third ransom note, this person who writes it or sends it does not seem to show any concern about Nancy Guthrie. It's kind of all about himself. So also another thing to listen for in conversations around the table or on a date or whatever, is a person talking about how someone could benefit
from abducting an older person, or they're talking about Nancy herself and how sad this is. And is she still alive? And how is the family doing? If there is empathy in the conversation, that's not a perpetrator. If there's lack of empathy, then that is a possible suspect. Crime scene investigation is both an art and a science. I have been critical of the sheriff in this case from day one.
This sheriff is not a trained public information officer. He's not familiar with media relations and he just shouldn't be spouting out and blaming the media for overreacting and so forth. Nancy Guthrie still missing. The reward now up to over $1.2 million. Straight out to Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Mack. Dave, what's the latest?
Nancy, as we hit the one-month mark in the investigation, for the very first time since any of this began, we saw Savannah Guthrie in public. Savannah Guthrie, along with her sister Annie and Annie's husband Tommaso, the three of them appeared at Nancy Guthrie's home. And in the front part of her home, on the edge of the property, there is a makeshift memorial.
It's got yellow flowers and yellow ribbons, all types of things like that. And Annie and Savannah walked arm in arm with Tommaso and they actually set a note down at this makeshift memorial. Then later in the day, Savannah issued another Instagram and again, talking really about her mother and directly to her mother. And I'm wondering what that means, if it means anything.
It seems like her notes previously have had a certain meaning to them, addressing certain aspects of the kidnapping. I don't know if these have that same attachment. But Savannah Guthrie seemed for the first time since this began. With regard to the notes, we've got the family note at the makeshift memorial and Savannah Guthrie and her Instagram note.
Based on what you're seeing in these, does it seem like the FBI is involved in writing these notes and is there a direction or are these just straight up family related? You know, I think they're straight up family related at this point. You could tell by some of the verbiage within them, you know, the note that was left out at the curb by the family. My understanding is, you know,
very personal to mom. It's a one-on-one conversation with her and they're expressing their love to her. Whereas when you see Savannah's Instagram, she starts off right away with thanking all of the neighbors. That tells us there's still hoping that information will be flowing from the public. And what's interesting is she has compressed that to her neighborhood.
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