Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie, missing with this many agents on the ground. All the personnel, all the technology, how is it possible? We take a close look at exactly what the FBI is looking at. The tattoo on the porch guy's wrist. What can we learn? Believe me, a lot.
This as the Pima County Sheriff issues an urgent plea. for everyone in the surrounding area to hand in video.
Chapter 2: What is the current status of the Nancy Guthrie investigation?
Will it make a difference? Well, when you don't know a horse, look at the track record. The answer is yes. Also, at this hour, the FBI behavioral analyst unit carefully reviewing not just the porch guy video, but the alleged ransom note. Why? Straight out to Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter. Dave, a crew.
ARMED WITH LADDERS, HAS ARRIVED AT NANCY GUTHRIES HOME AND GONE UP ON THE ROOF. WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME? WHY ARE THEY THERE? This silver pickup truck with multiple ladders in the back pulled onto the Guthrie property, pulled around the driveway and got up on the house. We don't know what they were looking for and no announcement has been made, but activity at Nancy Guthrie's home.
Chapter 3: How is the FBI analyzing evidence in the case?
Now we've examined it like a Rubik's cube over and over trying to discern what, if anything, we can learn from the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist. And tonight... Our findings, joining us, an all-star panel, but straight out to special guest, Darren the Dude Rosa, tattoo artist, joining us from Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City, 30-plus years in the tattoo business.
Mr. Rosa, thank you for being with us. Let's start controlling. Please show the video of the perp approaching Mrs. Guthrie's porch. The FBI, according to sources, has enlarged, refined, and brought in a team of analysts to review the tattoo. As you see, he very carefully covered his arms and wrists, not just because he doesn't want to leave fingerprints.
It's really hard to get an arm print or an elbow print. That's not the reason. His body is totally covered. Now, let's ISO the tattoo, the sliver of tattoo that we see.
Chapter 4: What role does the Pima County Sheriff play in the search?
We have learned the FBI is doing exactly what we are doing. Darren, the dude, Rosa, you have studied this for hours. What is, as you call it, black and gray work? Black and gray work is a very prevalent style, not only in the Southwestern area, but let's say the Southwestern area among gangs, Mexican people who might be in these gangs or cartels like to get black and gray. It's a fine line.
The outlines are done with a very fine needle. The details, the shading is done with different dilutions of black ink. And we term that gray. So black and gray is considered a style. And this is most likely that style. Now, you mentioned gang cartel. I am certainly not convinced that Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping has any of the hallmarks of a cartel move. But what about a gang member wannabe?
What about family of gang member? What about family of gang members and hangers-on? I don't think you can limit to just a gang or a cartel member becauseā Once a tattoo is observed by others, they want to replicate it, right? And I want to hone in on the black and gray. But as to relating to a gang or a cartel, let's focus on gang.
Why do you believe the black and gray is from the Southwest or from a certain region of the country? And what region exactly would that be, Mr. Rosa? Okay. Well, first of all, let's, let's deal with just the practicality of black and gray.
If we're talking about a tattoo that was done in a penitentiary, they, these inmates don't have access to color ink, but most likely they don't even want, this is a style that's been embellishing gangs for, for, for years. And they've honed this style, this very subtle gradations of ink to a fine art. And this is even considered hallmarks of people who've moved up in the echelons of a gang.
Why do you say that? Well, these people are going to be doing a lot of time. They're not giving up. They're not becoming informants. They're going to be spending five years, 10 years behind bars. They have a lot of time to kill. Guys, with us is Darren, the dude, Rosa, joining us from Rising Dragon Tattoos in New York City, 30 years plus of experience in the tattoo art. Black and gray.
Now, I just want to be sure we understand. Have you ever seen a child with a coloring book and they outline the picture heavily with a crayon and then there's a lighter hue, the same color, on the inside? That's how I'm equating your description of black and gray. Would that be correct? Well... No, because it wouldn't be with the same quote unquote crayon.
The dilutions is what I called it are using, you know, let's say it was penitentiary. So the dilutions would be created using different concentrations of black ink diluted with water, but most likely a little bit of alcohol because, you know, for germs. And it also helps spread the ink and create a finer mist of shading the alcohol.
But black and gray work is a hallmark of a certain region of our country. You're saying that too. Oh, yes. And absolutely. This is also the kind of the style of tattooing that withstands heavy sun exposure. So because like I said, this style, fine line, typically single needle work. And, you know, these people are out in the sun, the southern western states get heavy sun exposure.
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Chapter 5: What is the significance of the tattoo on the porch guy's wrist?
And that leads me to think it's part of a sleeve. What do you think? Oh, absolutely. I mean, if this is all we're seeing, and what is this, like barely half of an inch, this is most likely the continuation of of something that covers this man's entire arm. Most likely he's got tattoos on his hands. He's wearing this hooded mask, this balaclava.
Most likely he's got tattoos on his neck and maybe even something under his eye because this is what they do. Darren, you mentioned covering up his arm. Yes. I want to get back to the full sleeve, because to me, from what I've observed from inmates over all the years I prosecuted and investigated and covered crimes, once you start, you can't stop.
And that leads me to think, this on him looks part of a bigger tattoo. That tells me it's a full sleeve.
Chapter 6: What insights can tattoo experts provide about the porch guy?
And once somebody gets a full sleep, it's like they can't stop. I mean, do you think people get addicted to getting tattoos? I do. You know, getting addicted has, you know, that that stigma that that this is like heroin or something. But it happens. To focus on this guy, you know, he was probably an inmate at a penitentiary. And let's not forget, they have a lot of time to kill.
Yes, tattoos can be addictive. People use them for therapy. They call it ink therapy. Put him up, please. Did you just say ink therapy? What is that? Ink therapy. Yeah, that's... That's a phrase that's bouncing around, especially in the winter months, right? A lot of people get seasonal depression.
People come in for a little ink therapy or they're going through some stress in their life, maybe a divorce or something. Maybe they lost a loved one, a parent. They come in for some therapy. Never heard that. You just taught me something new. So, Darren, if we believe that he has the wrist tattoo, which is part of a sleeve, why stop there?
Ergo, it follows that he would have a neck tattoo and even more. Do you agree with that? That's who we're looking for. That's why I care about this guy's tattoo. I agree 100%. I mean, 82 degrees, and he's wearing his hooded mask. He's got tattoos on his neck, most likely, you know, on the edges of his face. This is the kind of southwestern state gangs.
They love getting heavily covered in black and gray style tattoos. So in your experience, to nail this point down, 30-plus years, Darren the Dude Rosa... Once you start with the wrist, the wrist is part of a bigger tattoo, which would be the sleeve. That's why they call it a sleeve. It's like a sleeve of your shirt or jacket. Right. It's like a shirt.
The hand is covered, could indicate part of the hand. If you look at the picture again, control room, you don't see it ending as it goes down into the glove. Does that signify... A hand tattoo. In your experience, does that suggest to you that he would have another sleeve on the other arm and possibly the neck? That's a simple yes, no. Absolutely. Yes.
okay let's move from that so we're looking for a guy from this region exposed to the sun potential gang connections with a full sleeve and hand possibly two sleeves and neck now is it your experience that people that get tattoos
first get their dominant hand tattooed or their other hand non-dominant which one do they typically tattoo first right a lot of right-handed people will start with their left arm So if this guy has his right arm and it looks like he's right-handed because every time he goes up to that ring camera, he starts off with his right arm. That's my own little analysis of his actions.
He starts with his right and then his left is kind of helping him. So I would say he's fully sleeved on his left arm and then he got his right arm done because this is what most people that have come into my studio do. So he's right-handed, so he would have typically start with tats on the left and then go to the right.
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Chapter 7: How does the community contribute to the investigation?
Some of these... inmates who spent a lot of time in jail. They develop sophisticated networks with the guards, with the staff. These days, it's very easy to smuggle in. The machines have gotten smaller, compact, more sophisticated. It's my belief that he got this while incarcerated and the level of sophistication has become exponential, even in populations that are incarcerated.
Would inmates, let's say in the pen, penitentiary, a CI, correctional institute, would they have access to multiple needles or do they go single needle? Well, like I said, the machines have become very sophisticated. They've become compact and,
Chapter 8: What is the importance of video evidence in this case?
We now have a system that uses cartridges that lock into the pen-like apparatus. It would be very easy. These needles are about an inch and a half. It would be very easy for them to obtain a single needle for the outline and a cluster of needles for the shading. And when we're talking about jailhouse tats, here's my thinking. If you're in a jail, think of Andy of Mayberry.
You're there for a brief period of time because you have been sentenced to a misdemeanor and they just keep you in the county jail because you're going to be out like that. There's no use in putting you in the system. It takes forever. Or you're awaiting trial or a court date.
Once you're sentenced or you have a long wait for trial, such as Epstein, you go into a bigger facility and sometimes a CI, correctional institute facility. But those people are typically sentenced and doing a long stint. Why do I care? Because if this guy was in a CI to get that tattoo, that means he's got a record.
So now I've got a guy from the southwest region that spends a lot of time in the sun that got black and gray work. likely has two full sleeves and more, and has done jail time. Okay. Isn't it true, Darren the Dude Rosa, that at your tattoo parlor, Rising Dragon, you have, for instance, a catalog or a series of tattoos that your customers can look at and pick out a tattoo. Isn't that true? We do.
But I would dare say that these people are not flip catalogs. They're going off the cuff. And an artist kind of gains cred by being able to do sophisticated custom work. Ah, so custom work that they envision and they say, hey, this is what I want. Now you create it. Would you agree that once you start with tats,
very often you stick with the same tattoo artist and with tattoos of this magnitude, you would remember doing it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Have you ever been approached by law enforcement to identify a tattoo? Yes, I have. About 25, 30 years ago, I was approached by FBI and
Um, they were trying to, um, identify some of the victims, um, which happened to be, um, prostitutes, uh, or we could say sex workers. Um, this specific killer, a serial killer, um, um, the police had pulled over. him in his pickup truck, they found a decapitated body, which led them to more bodies in the Far Rockaway, Brooklyn area. But my studio in Manhattan was one of the prevalent studios.
So they came to me to see if I could identify any of these women. Could you? I did not recognize the particular tattoos, although another artist, I felt it was more his style. Interesting. And here is the million dollar question. Let me rephrase the 1.2 plus million dollar question. You've looked at the sliver of tattoo. Hmm. What do you think it is? Is it a cross? Is it a flower? Is it a demon?
Is it a dragon? Is it a creature like you've got on your neck? What is it? Well, we can tell it's not geometric. It's kind of wavy lines. The prevalent type of imagery these people get is, Catholic imagery, memorials to deceased gang members or family members.
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