Crime World
Episode 1360: Havana Syndrome: the mysterious disease targeting the CIA (Part 1)
23 Jan 2026
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
The curtains are drawn all the time. I think they had to go around for something. The whole front room is full of computer equipment. They had to have a safe room in the house. They boarded up the window. I mean, there's no way these people were just straightforward embassy workers doing passport checks at the airport.
It was a kind of funny sort of switcheroo of suddenly reading the world differently. I mean, they do fill your head with this idea that it's happening all the time.
I'm Nicola Tallent, and this is Crime World, a podcast about criminals, drugs and the sins of the underworld. If you like this podcast and want to learn more about crime, go to our new website, www.crimeworld.com, for stories, extras and podcast subscriber specials. A mystery syndrome strikes down CIA spies working in Cuba. But is Havana syndrome real or imagined?
And what does patient zero have to say about his treatment by the agency he once worked for? Reports this month suggest that the Biden administration purchased an energy weapon suspected of being similar to one which may have caused the series of mystery ailments. But what is fact and what is fiction when it comes to Havana syndrome? And what did podcasters Jennifer Ford and
and Sam Bungie discover when they took a deep dive into a world of shadows and secrets. Today, I'm talking to Jennifer and Sam about their latest series, Havana Helmet Club, a fascinating new podcast from the couple behind West Cork. You're listening to Crime World, a podcast from crimeworld.com. Very welcome to the studio.
And I think Jennifer and Sam, people start off, we're not going to talk about this for very long, but we'll probably know you best from West Cork because it was such a phenomenon. To me, it was the first major big podcast. I think it got me hooked on them. A story that's so synonymous with Ireland. And I was just fascinated that you had moved here to do it and you had kind of totally relocated.
It felt like real journalism again.
Of course, you very much beat us to the story. I remember hearing through Ian Bailey, your name came up a few times because I guess you and Donald had been going down to him. Yeah.
But that was pre, certainly podcasts been in my realm. That was kind of, I think we probably did a little bit of filming with him. And, you know, we were writing stories with him. He kept in touch, of course. He used to ring me full of whiskey at night sometimes. Freak me out a bit. But it was a fantastic podcast. It's still been listened to. It still comes up and down the charts.
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Chapter 2: What is Havana Syndrome and how does it affect CIA agents?
I think the sense of place, you know, West Cork is kind of what, you know, it was such a different way of looking at the story because I think it gave us our structure. Yeah. of kind of telling the story from the perspective of what it would have been like to live there at the time and experience it as it unfolded.
And I think that really got us out of the hole of how do you tell this story to people that know it so well and have lived through it for the last 20 years and people who've never heard of Ian Bailey or Sophie Toscan de Plantier.
Chapter 3: Is Havana Syndrome a real phenomenon or just a myth?
So, you know, just telling it kind of chronologically and letting the story unfold And the kind of character development that way allowed it to, as I say, it kind of answered a lot of the questions that we had as to how you do that, I think.
And like, you know, it is a beautiful place and it is quite multicultural in its own way. But at the same time, it's hard to go in as total outsiders to the story, I'm sure, and get people to trust you and talk to you.
Chapter 4: What do we know about Patient Zero's experiences?
That kind of becomes part of it, does it?
I think so. I think, you know, you could bring preconceptions to all that. And I was just with a friend there the other day, actually a friend of Jennifer's, who had really put the fear into us about that particular thing that, you know, no one's going to talk to you. You're wasting your time in Dublin. And he actually said, you know what?
Chapter 5: What energy weapon is linked to the recent reports on Havana Syndrome?
I haven't got much on. I'll help. I'll come down with you for your first couple of trips and I'll smooth the ground. I don't know anyone there, but you know, I've got the gift of gab or whatever. Um, and, uh, anyway, we were down there first kind of time we were in the pubs after speaking to a few people. Um, they said, yeah, yeah. You know, um, you'll find it tough being an English person.
Although the only thing worse than that would be if you're a dub. I think that would have helped. Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. It doesn't go down too well. And we all know the story of it and there has been some documentaries made in the meantime. And of course, Ian Bailey passed away last year, I think it was. So the case remains unsolved and... You know, you wonder, will there ever be an end to it? But who knows?
I was interested, though, when I was listening to your new podcast, which is what we're here to talk about, the Havana Helmet Club, made for BBC4.
Yeah, BBC Sounds, but it went out on Radio 4 as well. Went out on Radio 4.
So it's on BBC Sounds. Yeah, it's on everywhere. It's on everywhere, yeah, because we have some difficulty getting some of the BBC stuff here.
Ah, yeah.
But anyway, so you were kind of in West Cork, were you, when this story came on your radar?
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Chapter 6: How did Jennifer and Sam become involved in the Havana Helmet Club podcast?
That's right. When it first sort of kind of came on everyone's radar as a sort of odd news item, we were finishing up Westcourt. We're trying to desperately. And... Yeah, we had a newborn baby. The podcast was late. It was a tough time. And I think we were kind of looking for escapism. And this story was in the papers at the time because it was all very sketchy back then, 2017. Yeah.
Supposedly, a small group of American US spies and diplomats, so people working as diplomats in Cuba, in Havana, Cuba, or pretending to be diplomats, but actually working as CIA agents in Cuba. began to suffer a range of strange symptoms after hearing an odd and overpowering noise in their rented accommodation in the evening around twilight.
And sometimes they were in bed, sometimes they were sitting on the veranda having a mojito or something. But they found themselves overpowered and then... A week or two later, they started feeling terrible where they would get terrible brain fog. They would start like falling down. Their balance was terrible at work and, you know, headaches and inability to kind of concentrate on writing.
And a kind of a tinnitus with this ringing in the ear as well.
Or, you know, there's a thing where if you're sitting in the back of a car, a moving car, and someone cracks one window, you get that funny baffling sound. Yes. So there was a range of things. But the stories back then were quite thin and filled with what turned out to be rumors. There was quite a lot of false rumors about the extent of what was going on. But there was this recording.
Someone had made a recording of this strange sound. And so I think it was AP had it and you could play it and it was on Twitter. And I remember us sitting around playing it and all the comments under the strange sound were, you know, people making jokes about it sounding like aliens or it's the Russians doing this or it's the Cubans.
So quickly that was the idea that this was a weapon being directed at these people and a weapon that no one had ever... used before, heard of, tell of. And so we were kind of... You were playing it over and over again.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm kind of half wondering. That was some of the comments. Should we be doing this ourselves? Are we all going to get this problem in two weeks as well? But then, so I'm kind of interested. And we started talking to people and... A colleague, Larry Ryan, and I were sort of looking at it. Could we do a story about this? And we did start working on it with the BBC.
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Chapter 7: What challenges do journalists face when investigating espionage stories?
But, you know, people were getting cases cropping up all over the world with the same kind of thing. Who hadn't necessarily been to Cuba. who hadn't ever been to Cuba, but they were all US spies or diplomats or working for the US government in some way. So we would talk to doctors and diplomats and so on.
But the story really changed for us and became what we really were fascinated by when we managed to get in touch with one particular spy who's known as Patient Zero. And it was a long, tricky process. But then I had this call with him. It was just before Christmas one year. And he's somewhere at the end of the line. And I have this call with him.
And then I went to meet him in the UK where he happened to be coming over for Christmas. And then I played Jennifer the tape when we got home. And that's when we kind of really... changed of view of the story right?
Yeah so there's a moment I suppose this is a bit train spotting for podcasters but when you realize you have something and you've more than anybody else and that's you have somebody intimate with the story I think you have some so you have patient zero he's agreed in principle maybe to talk to you and so you have somebody really at the heart of the story you need that for podcasting especially to try and keep somebody's
attention for so long. Yeah. I mean, you're looking for somebody to stay with you for up to five hours or whatever. You might record, what, 500 hours, but you'll whittle it down. Stilling it down, yeah. So you start to see that you can actually do this.
The shape of it.
I think so. And I think what was interesting about him was it was, you know, because I think when we took it to the BBC, that was the big question. Is anyone going to talk to you? Because, you know, we are not, this isn't our beat. So it was a bit similar, like you mentioned with West Cork, we would be very much kind of outsiders going into this. closed world.
I mean, it's the world of espionage. They're not traditionally people who talk to journalists. So it definitely felt like a coup to get this guy. But I think what was particularly interesting was that like, You know, this was a story. Sam was curious about it. He was kind of interested with our friend and producer, Larry. They would send, you know, messages about it back and forth.
And, you know, I am interested in Cuba. I've been there a couple of times, but... You know, that were, am I interested in a hunt for a secret weapon? Maybe. Would I listen to podcasts about it? Probably not. Do you know what I mean? And then I listened to this interview. This, you know, Sam did some recordings with this guy. And I was like, oh, this isn't just...
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