DSPN - Devlin Sports Podcast Network
Can Dave Rennie Bring Back the Innovation We've Lost? | Daryl Gibson
06 May 2026
Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What does Daryl Gibson think about the new Christchurch stadium?
Super Rugby can prepare the All Blacks for test footing. But if you look at it, the only team we can't really beat at the moment is South Africa, consistently.
That black jersey is, to me growing up, and I'm 62 now, has always meant absolutely everything. It's a symbol of New Zealand. You go overseas, you wear it around, you see one. It is everything about us, isn't it?
On any given day, an Australian team with their best line-up, Welcome to the DSPN. The Devlin Sports Podcast Network.
DSPN and welcome to it. Real special guest for you today, Daryl Gibson. He needs no introduction, but he's going to get one. Canterbury Crusader, All Black. And look at this for a coaching resume. Glasgow Warriors, part-time assistant coach, Crusaders, New Zealand Maori, Waratahs, first team coach of the Waratahs, Samoa, Fiji. So there's a hell of a lot there.
in terms of experience that Daryl has got. Just before we do this, a couple of bits of business to take care of. Please click the subscribe button for us on YouTube. That always helps. And if you jump the rover.nz prize page, that's rova.nz, register there. You can win yourself a couple of tickets to OFC, and that is Auckland FC playing Southern United next Tuesday at Eden Park.
And come along with me and we can watch those games together. Just jump on. If you'd like to take a family member and join me in the stands for that, rova.nz. Daryl, welcome back to the program, mate. Real treat having you on as always.
Thank you, Martin. It's good to be on.
Let's talk some rugby, because I know you're working for New Zealand Cricket, the high-performance manager there at the moment. The rugby, though, first and foremost, track back a couple of weeks, opening of that new stadium. How good?
Incredible. And obviously there's been a lot of commentary around the quality of the stadium, the view, the experience. But as a Cantabrian, it's more for me the symbolism of the city finally getting back together. You know,
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Chapter 2: Why is Daryl Gibson watching the Top 14 instead of Super Rugby?
It's something to be proud of. And for everyone who lives there and has gone through all of that to go, yeah, man, this is a, as you say, it's really symbolic. I just felt he said that the timing was right.
Yeah, I think so. Obviously, the great thing about New Zealanders is we have great vision for how things should look. But typically, as we go on, we scale things down because we can't afford things or we're not willing to pay to the original grand plan. We're very much a nation that builds something for 20 years, not 100.
So it's really great to actually see something come out that none of, you know, in the vision of Gerry Brownlee to say, we want a roof stadium in the city and we're going to stick by that. So I think the test of time will be that, yes, that was the right decision. And of course, that means a lot for us around the ratepayers and how much we have to pay.
But I think over time, it's going to be such a draw card getting people back into the city and bringing the city centre in particular alive again, which through those earthquakes, everyone went out to the suburbs. And now there's a suddenly there's a draw back into the city centre.
Look, it was rocking a couple of weeks ago. I know that if it's not sold out, there's only a handful of tickets left for Friday's match against the Blues. So it shows that people want to go to that place as well. It's going to be an event. It's going to be a night out. It's more than just going to a game now. So, yeah, I was wowed out by it, mate.
And I think that as soon as you walk into that, that's the overwhelming feeling most people are going to get. They're going to go, wow, look at this place, you know.
Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, the concert, a concert there is just going to be unreal. You know, it's perfectly built. You've got that open side for the stage, the people on the ground. It's just going to be awesome. And no matter what events there, it's going to be great.
And I just think, I hope as people, as New Zealanders, we seize on that opportunity and really embrace it and get along. And it's, yeah, it's just a fantastic addition to the city.
Do you feel like it needs to be rubber-stamped now for next year, the Super Round? I know that Auckland's put their hand up and everything. I just kind of feel that after being so successful in that, it worked. Let's get it to work again, maybe in a few years' time, talk about it. But just here you go again, Christchurch, have it.
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Chapter 3: How can Super Rugby prepare the All Blacks for test matches?
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Past performance is not an indicator of future performance. Product disclosure statement available at generalfinance.co.nz. Darryl, Super Rugby cops it like a chook from all sides. A lot of people have got a lot of things to say about it. I've been really enjoying this competition this year. I liked it last year as well. So my first question is just how much of it are you watching?
Are you enjoying what you're watching as well?
I have really enjoyed Super Rugby over the last three years, to be fair. I think the standard of rugby across all of it has been very good. I think obviously there's still that New Zealand interest around our own derbies. They're very high quality matches.
I do subscribe to a little bit around the competition is missing the difference that South African teams bring around the DNA in which they play the game. Um, obviously Australia, New Zealand is relatively similar in how we approach the game and how we like to play and enjoy it.
Um, but as a spectacle and what we're trying to do, um, very good at times, I do find I'm going to be controversial here a little, a little bit boring. Um, I think, uh, rugby's got a little bit more mechanical. And so I enjoy watching teams that are playing more unstructured rugby within a structured sort of framework. You know, I look to the Chiefs, I look to the Hurricanes.
They're playing what I'd consider good rugby to watch. I find myself watching a lot more top 14 and the European Cup stuff. I really enjoyed this year's Six Nations. Yeah, man. That was quality rugby. And I think... Yeah, a lot of that comes down to the attitude of the coach and how they set their teams up. But overall, it's a really nice competition and one that I've been following.
Look, and just watching the rugby up the north, because I try and get as much of that as I can over the weekend as well. I've been really enjoying it, and I think that the intent has changed. Look, you saw it in the Six Nations, didn't you? Especially that brilliant last match between France and England. Not every rugby match can be like that.
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Chapter 4: What is the significance of All Black identity in modern rugby?
And I'm looking forward to Dave and his coaching team taking over because Dave was involved with the Chiefs and the style of play that he installed there, the style of play installed in Australia around running rugby, seeing the opportunities. So I'm really... Really looking forward to watching the All Blacks this year.
Hell of a schedule, of course, to come into, but excited for what potentially he can bring. With the local derbies coming up and within the playoffs, it is what we've got, Daryl, and so it's all we do have. But are you confident that it is good enough for Dave Rennie and his crew to be able to gather what they need and also prepare the players for what's coming?
Yeah, I think if I answer that question, it would be around Dave having quite a clear view on his playing style and the identity of the All Blacks. And then how does the competition support that identity around how we play the game? I think I mentioned earlier, France are very clear with how they play the game, their attitude, their intent.
And that's largely, to a certain degree, reflected in the top 14. So to answer your question, I do believe Super Rugby can prepare the All Blacks for Test footy, noting that a lot of commentary that tests football is different. But if you look at it, the only team we can't really beat at the moment is South Africa, consistently. So maybe we just haven't got the game plan correct against them.
But against everyone else, we're very competitive. So I'm more interested in seeing what Dave brings around that identity, what All Black Rugby stands for and the way we play the game.
Expand a little bit on that for us in terms of especially the identity bit and what it stands for. What exactly do you mean?
Well, if I was to categorise sort of the All Blacks over the last two years, you know, I felt we'd lost the innovation and creativeness that characterise the All Blacks. So I'd be interested into seeing, you know, what and how are we going to play the game?
You know, getting back to some of the traditional things that the All Blacks are known for, you know, our counter-attack, our ability to play unstructured,
you know we used to be great innovators of the game instead of at the moment I felt we were copying other nations in the way they played as opposed to going no actually you know this is how we play as a nation this is how we're choosing to win rugby and these are the things that are important that go towards that being a style of play that can be a winning one so I'm
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Chapter 5: What are Daryl Gibson's thoughts on overseas player selection rules?
I'm probably more in the camp that we should protect the playing stock and domestic talent that we have. I'm still in favour of you know, you need to play in New Zealand to be an All Black.
I think there could be a nice relaxation of the law to go, actually, Dave and your selectors, you're allowed to pick one forward and one back from the global game or put a cap on, you know, the number of the ghetto law, effectively, in Australia, where... In a year, there might be a real shortage of locks in our country, you know, for various reasons.
There's injuries, there's, you know, mitigating circumstances that require us to go, actually. Brodie would tell it, you've been playing outstandingly in Japan, here's an opportunity, it's a one pick, almost like a captain's call, captain's pick, that they get to elect, you know, and there could be quite a nice middle ground in there.
where Dave gets the players he needs, but then also rewards people here who are playing in a domestic team in competitions.
I want to ask you about New South Wales as well, because the time that you spend coaching them, I want to go to Australia and figure out what the hell is going on with their super rugby teams. But since we're on this topic, and we spoke about this yesterday as well, I'm going to read you a list of players.
Flanders, Finianga Nafo, Higgins, Walker Laweri, Papali Isetutu, AJ Lamb, Rhys Enor, Dallas McLeod, Nana Eseturil. Some of those guys have been All Blacks, about three or four of those guys. There are names there that are young players who are choosing to go overseas. rather than stay and play for the All Blacks.
Those 11 players, you could almost fit those into a side that might play against a URC side on the South African tour. That's a pretty good list of names there, isn't it?
How much of a worry is it for us, twofold on this, that those names are going, the names have already left, but that's a lot of names, plus also the fact that some of these guys are young and they're foregoing their chance to represent our country.
Yes. You know, I throw Riley Higgins in there as well. Yeah, yeah. He's an outstanding young player. And, you know, good on him. He's made the decision. I think with that stuff, you could argue that's always been the case. You know, if you're a fringe, very established super rugby player, your pathway appears blocked, then the opportunities will appear to go overseas where you can earn...
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Chapter 6: How does Daryl Gibson view the current state of Australian rugby teams?
Absolutely. And then equally, it creates a market for players around attracting the best players and teams wanting to recruit well. So I'd be in favour of that.
What's going on with New South Wales and the Brumbies, Darrell? New South Wales started 2-0, and every year we think that this is their year. Brumbies started 3-0. They've both lost six of their last eight. There's only one Australian team that is actually above the 500. That's six and four, the Reds. Everyone else has got a losing record. How do you explain this?
It's quite a normal pattern. You know, perennially, New Zealand are slow starters, mainly because of the leave periods that we have Um, from all black tours through to the super rugby, you know, start of the competition, the all blacks coming in late your roster and those early, early rounds, uh, um, you know, full of development and sort of second string players.
So once, once the teams establish their sales and they get their best players back, you know, you'd expect the New Zealand teams to rise, which has happened. With Australia, it's reverse. You get a number of your best players available early. You get them in pre-season. And, you know, typically you want to draw New Zealand teams first because you know that they're going to be underdone.
So I'm not surprised of that. I think... At the moment, you've got three New Zealand teams playing really good rugby, solid. We saw that excellent game Reds-Blues here at the stadium, which showed that on any given day, an Australian team with their best line-up can easily compete with a New Zealand team.
I'd be more interested in the debate around the dilution effect of Super Rugby teams across five or six than there has been. So it'll be interesting to see what that impact of Moana not being in the competition and what that does to the talent pool for the other teams in New Zealand, which would be a good thing.
You've got confidence in your Crusaders. They've got a hell of a run in. They've got three massive games. They're all at home, though, and there's a chance that they could finish eight and six. There's a chance that they could finish seven and seven if they drop one of those games.
I don't know if any other team really wants them in the first round of the playoffs, but do you see that trajectory, which the rest of us all look at and go, it's coming again?
I think, obviously, Will Jordan coming back into that side will be... Yeah, that does help, doesn't it? That will help. He adds a different dynamic from an attacking perspective to that team. I guess with the Crusaders, they're still searching for, and Taha's a young player who's finding his feet, you know, a 10, a 9 and 10 combination that is dominant.
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Chapter 7: What challenges do New Zealand rugby players face in choosing overseas options?
They've got a solid squad. They've had probably the best developing squad after the last three or four years. I wouldn't discount the Chiefs and obviously Verne and the Wiley Blues. He produces teams that are physical, pragmatic. So I think between those three, you'll find your champion. But at the moment, I'd be going with the Hurricanes.
All right, I saved the best to last. Here's a curly one that we can debate and try and figure out. And obviously with the sensitivities of your current job with New Zealand cricket.
Talking to Steve Hansen on the program last week, and he said that we've just got to still maintain excitement, not only excitement, but just enthusiasm, passion, desire, love for that black jersey, and that kids are growing up and they're wanting to be what you wanted to be, what I wanted to be, what our generations wanted to be, which is to wear an all-black jersey.
New Zealand cricket have got a situation which is completely different and the players can almost pick and choose when they play for their country. And we don't ever want that to be the same situation with rugby where the players are playing overseas and then they get into a situation where it goes, well, actually, I can't come back and play. I'm doing this or this is...
I don't know whether it needs reviving, Daryl. I don't even know how to kind of say it properly, but it's just that black jersey is, to me growing up, and I'm 62 now, has always meant absolutely everything. It's a symbol of New Zealand. You go overseas, you wear it around, you see one. It is everything about us, isn't it?
And I know that kids have got so many more options these days, but how do we still maintain that as being almost like the ultimate prize in New Zealand sport? Or is it an impossible ask now?
I just think it's different. You know, the context of which we're living in as a society is different. You know, one thing I would have hoped as a sport, we would adapt faster to what we are around recognising the way we consume sport is changing. Getting ourselves out of our lounge rooms and consuming sport on our phones or traditionally on the TV or going to a pub it's just different.
You know, and I think we've grown up in an era where going to support your team, knowing who you're having a connection to the team, that tribalism, I think over time that's diluted. And as a sport, we haven't done a really good job of feeding that fandom, you know, going, I am red and black or I'm from, you know, Waikato or whatever. We haven't done a decent job of creating that.
You only have to look at, say, NRL and how they package their game, how they market it, how they sell it to go, actually, we're losing in those stakes. We should be doing a much better job. I still believe, and it's the same in Australia, there is a latent love for rugby. You know, it's there. We just need to do a better job of connecting people to the game.
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Chapter 8: How can rugby maintain its cultural significance in New Zealand?
Yeah, good call. Good call.
I'd be interested to see what we do.
Yeah, how can they develop that? Yeah. Well, it's obviously you think about it a lot, which is brilliant. I hope that somebody taps into yourself and people like you because the great thing about it is, and I love asking these questions, Daryl, because what you get back is you get back that people care, man.
And that's all I want to translate through this screen and this podcast is that there's a whole lot of us that love it, that care. And there's a lot of things wrong with it. I'm not denying any of that stuff. I mean, I'm one of the biggest critics there as always, but I love it and I love what I see and I want it to continue and be like this.
And I think, Martin, what gives me great comfort is when I hear our players talk to that impact, you know, they still retain the same things that we cared about when we were players, which is great. You know, the whole professionalism stuff and being paid for what you do and all that stuff, that could really cloud what's really important as A, the love for our game and the values that sit behind
that love, which we all should share. And so when I hear players talking that language and that meaning, it gives me great comfort that you're right. There are people who care, who love the game just as much as we do.
One guy is Duplessis, man. You listen to him after the game. Man, that guy is authentic. He's genuine and he's authentic. I just love listening to him. I kind of feel really good when I hear him speak.
Absolutely. And I think that's why I really are drawn to the women's game at the moment, because they're at a different stage in their professional evolution. And to me, they are authentic. You know, Ruby Tui, they tell it as it is. And we were once like that. before social media and then, you know, you get haters and criticism and so forth. And so you get quite a bland sort of interview.
But it's great when, as you say, you get the real story. And as a fan, listening to someone saying how it is and, you know, how disappointed or what's going on inside the team, that's the little glimpse inside the team that, as a fan, we want to hear. This is the DSPN.
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