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DSPN - Devlin Sports Podcast Network

Super Rugby NOT Worth Watching? | Mailbag

22 May 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What are the physics behind the forward pass in rugby?

0.031 - 6.459 Martin

There's probably only ever going to be three Origin matches, because there kind of has to be, because it has to be that small.

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6.479 - 16.212 Jamie

That was forward. The rule is forward pass. A pass is an interaction between two players in motion. It has nothing at all to do with the ground planet Earth, which is stationary. The rule is not forward relative to the ground.

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16.412 - 32.996 Martin

It's a forward pass. I'm not saying that, you know, Bowdoin Barrett's going to magically transform back to the player that he was in 2016 and 17 when he was winning World Player of the Year. But at the same time, I'm a firm believer in form is temporary, class is permanent.

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33.457 - 41.794 Jamie

Welcome to the DSPN.

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41.814 - 45.782 Martin

John Walker wins the 1500 metres gold medal at the Olympic Games. The Devlin Sports Podcast Network.

48.04 - 57.152 Jamie

DSPN. Click that subscribe button for us, please, on the DSPN YouTube channel. That helps us a lot. And also, Changing Sheds is today. It's Friday.

Chapter 2: Why do the All Blacks rely on veteran experience for their tour to South Africa?

57.212 - 76.157 Jamie

If you text DSPN to 3598. On Changing Sheds today, we're doing our exclusive preview of Round 15 Super Rugby, amongst a whole lot of other stuff we're talking about. We just thought we'd give it a try this week. For our paying members, we'll talk about the Super Rugby, especially Crusaders versus Chiefs tonight, and that Brumbies versus Tars games. Give you a preview of that.

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76.137 - 95.209 Jamie

Doesn't mean we're going to do this every week. We're just trying a couple of things out. Cost you a couple of bucks a week. All right, mailbag time, Jamie. We've got a lot to get through. Have we or have we not had a lot of feedback this week? Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Especially on the two posts we did yesterday, the All Blacks team to play the Stormers.

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95.189 - 112.513 Jamie

As silly an exercise as that is, it's been noted by some of the comments. Thank you very much for that. And also, Brendan Nell being very up and open. A lot of topics about South Africa and South African rugby, including the drug taking as well. But my God, if you want to go down the well, jump on that comment page for five minutes or so.

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112.553 - 116.218 Jamie

Pour a rather large stiff drink next year before you do that.

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116.198 - 136.485 Jamie

shower afterwards yeah there's a there's a warning attached to that one but look love all your comments love all the feedback obviously there are moderators involved uh we work for media works and so that's what happened so i just like you know if you've got something to say please don't get personal because what will happen is somebody will come over the top of us before we even get to see it and they'll probably just whatever they do with it all right

136.465 - 153.286 Jamie

No further ado. What I do is I pick the comments out. He don't know what's coming because I want to surprise Jamie. All right. In no particular order. Cam Wells. My opinion not based on what sport is better. So we had this discussion this week. I'm not calling it a debate between Magic Round and Super Round. Just saying, you know, what do you think was better? What did you like about each?

154.007 - 170.351 Jamie

He says the NRL is a better comp than Super Rugby. Test Rugby is better than Test League. Different sports have their different pluses and minuses. Rugby to me has always been a bit like cricket where the pinnacle is the international game. The rest of it's a filler league almost the other way around. Yeah, look, I would say Test Rugby is better than everything in both sports.

170.391 - 190.444 Jamie

That's just my opinion. But I think Test Rugby is because of the international flavour of it. Look, if I'm looking at, say, the Six Nations, for example, this year's Six Nations and some of those games, you know, Ireland going to Twickenham. Scotland versus France, the England versus France game at the end. And you're comparing that to the Titans versus St. George. You're not.

190.865 - 208.626 Jamie

I'm not being disrespectful to the NRL competition here, but you're talking about nation states, nation states. You're talking about hundreds of years of geopolitical history and everything else, as well as the excitement of those games. I'm not saying that the NRL is a fantastic comp, but it is a domestic comp in Australia is what it is. So I just think he makes a good point.

Chapter 3: How does Super Rugby compare to the URC in terms of tackle stats?

208.606 - 227.728 Martin

Yeah, I think that's a really good point too. And I think he makes a good point about cricket as well, that test cricket can be regarded in a different way to other forms of cricket. Because obviously we don't take T20 as seriously unless it's a World Cup. And one-day cricket only seems to be relevant when there's a World Cup as well. You win every last play one-day cricket. Exactly, yeah.

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227.708 - 249.255 Martin

So, yeah, great point. I think the one thing I'm picking up out of that, though, is perhaps we're comparing the wrong things and that comparing Super Rugby to the NRL is probably not right anymore. And comparing Test Rugby to the NRL probably isn't right either. No, that's not right either. It's probably comparing Test Rugby to Origin.

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249.936 - 273.339 Martin

And I think that in terms of hype and in terms of eyeballs on screens and bums on seats, they're comparable. But at the same time, Test Rugby, how many tests are played every year? The All Blacks play, what, 14? The All Blacks are playing 17 times this year. And there's probably only ever going to be three Origin matches because there kind of has to be because it has to be that small.

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273.379 - 282.007 Martin

So if you're going to compare it that way, yeah, Test Rugby is far bigger, far more revenue, far more audience size. Well, it's an international game, isn't it?

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282.027 - 297.863 Jamie

But hey, again, look, the message is really simple. It's a great debate, though, and it's a great comment. Wood 6 says, Martin, you nailed it at the end. This was talking to Brendan Nell. I agree New Zealand's going to get more out of this tour than we will. You'll get the much-needed physicality and intel the year before the World Cup.

297.883 - 316.084 Jamie

Brendan also nicely cleared up the BS about the doping in the Champions Cup. Good episode. A couple of things about that. I'm not necessarily saying that we're going to get more out of this series than the South Africans. I think both of us are going to get... huge platform and base of knowledge, especially about the players before we go to the World Cup next year.

316.705 - 333.484 Jamie

I'm not going to make any comment about what Brendan said about the drug cheats. Again, I'm just going to refer you to the comments page and fill your boots on that. What Jamie has come up with is a great idea. We're actually going to get a doctor in over the next couple of weeks and get somebody to explain because a lot of comments have been made about

333.464 - 354.477 Jamie

the juicing of the South African schoolboy players and the residual effects of that as you grow into manhood and you continue playing. I'd like to get a medical opinion on this. I think we need a medical opinion. A lot of comments, and thank you so much, on the side we selected the All Blacks to play the Stormers.

354.457 - 371.402 Jamie

Holly Liable says they must be looking at Josh Jacob and Cam Miller for dirt trackers. Surely they've got to keep an eye on Callum Harkin as well. He's got all the attributes except experience that Bowdoin has lost. I expect Bowdoin will still be picked due to his experience, but with Perifetta leaving, they probably won't invest in him. So there's an open spot right there for Harkin.

Chapter 4: What are the major differences between Test Rugby and domestic competitions?

540.723 - 548.174 Martin

There hasn't been a complete clean out of an All Black team under a coaching regime since the Baby Blacks.

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548.976 - 549.697 Martin

Yeah.

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550.298 - 556.928 Jamie

And that was forced because those South African players who went on the Cavaliers Tour to South Africa weren't able to be picked for that game.

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557.048 - 573.837 Martin

And then as soon as they became eligible, they got picked for the next game. Straight back in. Straight back in. So it's historically, there's a historical precedent to at least roll over and then start incrementally adding guys in. And Scott Robison did that as well, because if you look at what the team was when he started to when it finished.

573.877 - 585.891 Jamie

He selected 44 players last year, didn't he? 45 or something. But Jamie, also, I go back to the fact that when you look at form in Super Rugby, a lot of the guys playing their best are... Really established All Blacks.

585.911 - 605.121 Martin

Yeah. And that's what we want, isn't it? I think there's some great shouts in there. And some good names you've had. And some great names. And, you know, maybe there will be a bit of an element, like it was in the old days, of using these warm-up games as trials to get into this testing. Why not? I hope so.

605.101 - 620.127 Jamie

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620.147 - 641.579 Jamie

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Chapter 5: How can Super Rugby teams improve their performance against international teams?

863.674 - 883.472 Jamie

We are of a mindset that we need to win every one of these midweek games. And so if he's the guy that can fulfill the role that Dave Rennie needs, I'm not arguing about that. No. My personal preference means nothing. I don't care. If Rico's one of those guys that he thinks, this guy can play and he can do this for me, I don't see him backing the All Blacks alongside Geordie Barrett.

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883.492 - 905.31 Jamie

But again, I'm not going to be surprised by anything because I don't see a number 13 that's got his hand up at the moment, apart from Tupai. that is going to fulfill that role. We don't have one in the country at the moment. So, Drew M says, hear me out for next year. Somebody says this at the beginning of their message. I go, Drew, I'm going to the fridge first before I read this one, pal.

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906.012 - 939.582 Jamie

Everyone plays everyone once, home and away. This is about Super Rugby. Look, I like the thoughts and everything else. I can tell you one thing. There is never going to be such wholesale change. It's not going to happen. If change happens with Super Rugby, it's going to be gradual. And... Next year's Super Rugby. I agree with you.

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939.722 - 955.26 Jamie

I think it's very similar to this year in terms of they're not going to increase it to everyone plays everyone 18 games. It's not going to happen because you'd have to start just after Christmas if that's the case, just for the time. Or you'd have to stop and have a break and we're not going to do that again. You will for the Anzac Test. I don't mind that.

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955.801 - 965.773 Jamie

So I think it's still going to be 14 games. And I think it's probably going to be a four-team final series unless they do the old McIntyre system and make it five.

966.513 - 986.597 Martin

Yeah, I feel like there's probability because they want that extra weekend of broadcast revenue. But also, the thing is, you can come up with all these ideas. I don't think they actually really can change it that much. They've signed a broadcast deal with a member for four or five years. Like you said, There's only so much of a window that they can actually do this in.

986.977 - 1002.618 Martin

And I think NZ Rugby are pretty happy with the fact that it finishes and there's a good couple of weeks before the All Blacks start because you can't make it any closer because the All Blacks have to assemble and train. And we've talked about it before about how Dave Rennie's getting 10 days.

1002.678 - 1010.789 Martin

And that was a bit of a shock because you think, gosh, has he had enough time to put an All Black team together? If you extend Super Rugby, you're not even going to get that.

1011.27 - 1011.37

Yeah.

Chapter 6: What insights were shared about player selections for the All Blacks?

1121.746 - 1134.2 Martin

I think that in terms of the URC, yeah, I'd probably back them to beat most of the teams in that. Them versus Leinster would be really, really interesting.

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1135.402 - 1148.597 Martin

And I'd be really interested to see how they go against the French top 14 sides as well because that's such a, it feels like a real styles clash and playing in Northern Hemisphere conditions as well would be just something really, really interesting.

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1148.577 - 1164.033 Jamie

It would be fantastic to see, wouldn't it? I just can't, unless they somehow globalise the calendars. All right, Joshua Coetzee, I think you've actually come in twice this week, mate. Congratulations to you. A lot of talk about Bowdoin Barrett, as there is every week. Bowdoin Barrett will go down as an All Blacks legend, but it is time to move on. He's not had a good Super Rugby, in my opinion.

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1164.053 - 1182.559 Jamie

It would be better to give Ray Harnham, Jacob, Kamara, Miller an opportunity. This debate is going to go on ad nauseum forever until Bowdoin gets named in the squad to go to South Africa, injury permitting, and he will. And I think that Dave Rennie will say there is a role for him. Whether he starts a test match, maybe he will in July. I wouldn't be surprised.

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1182.98 - 1204.13 Jamie

Whether he's the first five in those test matches in South Africa, I don't think so. Certainly not on current form. But again, in terms of that 44-man squad... I think that guys like him, alongside guys like Rico, could be really helpful. Yeah. And I'm just looking at that totality of that 44-man squad. He's not the Bowdoin Barrett that we knew.

1204.15 - 1212.311 Jamie

He was World Player of the Year, what, in 16 and 17? No, it wasn't 50. 16 and 17? 17 and 18, wasn't it? That's a long time ago.

1212.592 - 1237.977 Martin

Yeah. Yeah. But I'm going to throw one back at you, because I feel like our perception of Bowdoin is very much tied to the game plan that the Blues are playing. And their form. And their form as well. So I want to take you back to 2014, and I want to remind you of a guy called Dan Carter. And we, the entire country, was convinced that he was past his best.

1238.097 - 1243.671 Martin

Aaron Cruden was starting for the All Blacks. And then the next year, what happened?

1243.651 - 1244.914 Jamie

But that is Dan Carter.

Chapter 7: What are the implications of the upcoming Super Rugby season changes?

1404.555 - 1410.948 Martin

Yeah. I just, I mean, all I would say is that I think we're spending a lot of time on the show talking about under six club rugby.

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1412.603 - 1414.366 Martin

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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1414.827 - 1439.927 Jamie

All right. Okay. We'll move on. Listen from a mate who's in North America at the moment. He's in Carolina. Mate Roscoe, who I've been to four World Cups with now. There's about four of us. My big bro, Gino Roscoe. We fly around the world. We meet each other at World Cups. And we've been arguing, all four of us, over the last weeks about a forward pass and what constitutes a forward pass.

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1439.907 - 1459.468 Jamie

This is Ross. The way forward, but the rule is forward pass. He said that was forward. The rule is forward pass. A pass is an interaction between two players in motion. It has nothing at all to do with the ground planet Earth, which is stationary, relatively. You can't mix methods. The rule is not forward relative to the ground. It's a forward pass.

1460.731 - 1473.249 Jamie

Obviously, he was on the juice and had been for a few hours because of the time zone. And look, can we just go back to what you look at? And we're going to have Ben O'Keefe in here on Wednesday.

1473.289 - 1475.593 Martin

Yeah, so we've addressed this issue, people.

1475.793 - 1483.664 Jamie

And the first question to Ben is going to be, we're going to play him that piece of vision. You were there on the ground. What did you see?

1483.825 - 1507.478 Martin

Well, we've got a few questions for him. I was going to say the first question for him was the one asking if he's single. No, he's not, by the way. So we can answer that now. But no, just, you're right. And it goes back to what I talked about with Jeff the other day, who made a great case for it not being forward. And then we can sit here and make a great case for it being forward.

Chapter 8: How do fan interactions influence the perception of rugby players?

1624.628 - 1639.452 Jamie

This is a rugby podcast. We're watching Super Rugby every week. To be honest, brutally honest with you, I look at the NRL draw. I pick out the Warriors game. I pick out maybe one other game. I keep going back. St. George versus the Titans isn't gripping me in front of a television set. It just isn't.

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1640.113 - 1656.146 Jamie

But if you are the kind of person that watches every single game or eight games of the NRL every weekend, fill your goddamn boots, mate. Fill your boots. I look at the Premier League. I don't watch every single game of the Premier League every weekend. I don't watch every game. I actually do watch every game of the NFL just about. I don't watch NBA basketball until it gets to the playoffs.

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1656.947 - 1682.876 Jamie

So it's just what you want to do. A couple here about signing autographs. And they're both from Napier. We had Brad Shields on the program. Great interview. Great chat. Watch that. You're a genuine, authentic bloke talking from the heart about his personal experiences and that guy. That guy has also got a media career, Jamie. Yeah. He really does. He comes across so well, Brad. I think so.

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1682.896 - 1699.257 Jamie

Napier last year, Canes played the Drew. I had my eight-year-old with me. Says, Kid Tuhoi, we're waiting near the back gates to see the players leave. Everyone else had pretty much left. Pauri Rakiti-Stone sent us over to wait by the team bus. Brad came straight up to us before jumping on the bus, spoke with us for a good five to ten minutes. As a fan, I was buzzing.

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1699.318 - 1717.343 Jamie

As a dad, that moment meant a lot. Great man. Sometimes something little can go a long way. We also went to the Canes versus the Force. We got invited to meet my son's idol. Cam Roigard. Can't beat those memories with the young fella. Okay. And look, I was a big stock car fan as a kid.

1717.363 - 1732.871 Jamie

And one Christmas, Wilbur Charles from the Jesters out of Wellington, because we used to go up to Timaru every week, was just my hero. And one Christmas, I was about eight years old and the phone rang at home and... They said, oh, there's a phone call for you. And I went and got the... Because it was, you know, landline. Went and got the phone.

1732.931 - 1750.731 Jamie

And it was this guy on the phone who mum and dad had gone to. He had an electrical business in Lower Hutt. And they said, our son loves you so much. Can you please ring him on Christmas Day? And he did. I'd never forgotten it. Okay? So... That is a really great story to hear. And I know that the Hurricanes players do this. I watched the Blues players do it. You were there at the weekend.

1750.751 - 1766.754 Jamie

You watched the Blues players do this as well. Yeah, they let the fans on the field. So for anyone that thinks, and you might have got this one wrong, dude, last week. For anyone who thinks that rugby isn't opening the doors to this, you are actually wrong. Because the interaction with the kids and the players is something that is really special always, man.

1766.775 - 1770.74 Jamie

And I think all the sports are actually, breakers are big into it. Warriors are big into it.

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