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Dwarkesh Podcast

Sarah Paine – How Russia sabotaged China's rise

31 Oct 2025

Transcription

Full Episode

0.031 - 26.468 Sarah Paine

People are worried about whether there's going to be an enduring relationship with China and Russia. And if you look at this picture, the relations look more glacial than cordial. And the little one's hauling on the arm of the big one. And one wonders about that. So it turns out my expertise is on Russo-Chinese relations, and that's what I studied in graduate school.

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26.488 - 48.033 Sarah Paine

My dissertation was a history of their border from the Opium Wars in the mid-19th century until Outer Mongolia was snatched from the Chinese sphere of influence and parked in the Russian sphere in the 1920s. So It's fun to talk about this particular topic. Before I get going, I'm going to do some terminology.

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48.613 - 75.125 Sarah Paine

I'm going to use the word Russia to refer to the czarist Soviet and modern periods, the same way that you use France to describe its many monarchies and many republics. The Bolsheviks thought they were special, so they came up with special words for special people. Soviets, Soviet Union. But it turns out they were temporary and Russia is the enduring thing. So that's it on terminology.

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75.405 - 92.863 Sarah Paine

Before I speculate on what the future is going to look like, our only database that we have is whatever happened from this second backwards. What people call history, but it's just whatever is in the past. That's it. That's our database. And so I'm going to

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92.843 - 117.13 Sarah Paine

Look at when Russia was strong and China was weak from the mid-19th century to the mid-20th century, then the reversal of the power balance, and then in the recent period when China has been strong and Russia weak. China and Russia actually discovered each other late in their histories. It was the early part of their last dynasties when the Russians were after fur.

117.11 - 140.972 Sarah Paine

very lucrative in those days, and that brings them out to the Pacific. But their relations were only episodic until we get to the mid-19th century, which is where my story is going to begin. So in the 18th century, China was strong, Russia was weak, but that one doesn't last very long. And both empires followed the rules for continental empire.

141.552 - 159.45 Sarah Paine

And if you want to survive in a continental world, that's what both of them historically have been, you don't want to have two front wars because you have multiple neighbors, any one of them that can come in at any time. And if they gang up on you, that's trouble. So you take on one at a time. Also, you don't want any great powers on the borders.

159.89 - 169.402 Sarah Paine

This is the fundamental problem with their relationship. is because today's friend can be tomorrow's foe, and that is truly problematic. So what do you do to solve that problem?

169.823 - 194.083 Sarah Paine

Well, you take on your neighbors sequentially, you set them up to fail, you destabilize the rising and just the failing, and you set up buffer zones in between, and you wait the opportune moment to pounce and absorb, and that is Vladimir Putin's game. But if you play this game, you're surrounding yourself by failing states because you're either busy destabilizing them or ingesting them.

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