Herzog reflects on the curiosity that's fueled his career in the memoir, Every Man for Himself and God Against All, now out in paperback. The filmmaker and writer is drawn to extremes: extreme characters, extreme settings, extreme scenarios. But don't mistake him for a mad man like some of his film subjects: "You have to control what is wild in you. You have to be disciplined. And people think I'm the wild guy out there but I'm a disciplined professional," he tells Terry Gross.Film critic Justin Chang reviews Queer.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: Who is Werner Herzog and what drives his storytelling?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. Werner Herzog is a writer and director known for his unique approach to storytelling that often delves into the extremes, extreme personalities, predicaments, and places. Aguirre, The Wrath of God, follows a mad conquistador in the 16th century as he navigates the treacherous Amazon jungle.
Chapter 2: What are some of Herzog's most extreme films?
Then there's Fitzcarraldo, where Herzog tells the story of a European man living in Peru who becomes obsessed with bringing opera to the Amazon. To achieve his dream, he faces an incredible challenge, getting a steamship over a mountain to reach a river. It's a wild premise, and it's made even more intense by the performances of Klaus Kinski, who plays a madman in both films.
Kinski also starred in Herzog's haunting version of Nosferatu and appeared in the documentary Grizzly Man, which tells the tragic story of a man who lived among grizzly bears in Alaska, believing he was protecting them, until one day a bear eats him. Herzog's own life has been shaped by extremes, too.
Chapter 3: What shaped Herzog's childhood and his view on extremes?
Born in Munich during World War II, his mother rescued him as a baby from his crib, which was covered in shattered glass and debris after Allied bombs devastated nearby homes. His mother fled to a remote part of Bavaria for safety, where she raised him and his brother in poverty. Throughout his life, Herzog has endured numerous injuries, ski jumping, and while making films.
His cast and crew have faced their share of challenges, too. Those who may not be familiar with Herzog's films often recognize him for his sinister roles in popular shows like Jack Reacher, The Mandalorian, and even The Simpsons. Today, Herzog divides his time between Los Angeles and Munich, and Terry Gross spoke to him last year. His memoir is now available in paperback.
It's called Every Man for Himself and God Against All.
Werner Herzog, welcome back to Fresh Air.
Chapter 4: How does Herzog define discipline in his profession?
Thank you for having me again.
Oh, it is always my pleasure. Do you know why you're attracted to extremes in your life and in your films?
I don't see it that much as extremes. You see, when you move a ship over a mountain, it is doable. And I knew it was doable, although quite hard. But I think it is such a big metaphor like extremes. In literature, you have it, for example, the white whale, Moby Dick, in the hunt for it, or Don Quixote attacking the windmills with his lance.
So there are big metaphors, a big vision out there, and then it doesn't matter if it's becoming difficult or not. And, of course, I disagree a little bit about what you said about risking things. Yes, I have risked personally things. I test things. the problems and the obstacles and the dangers. But in 80 or so films, not a single actor was ever injured, not one.
So it's my proof that I must be circumspect, that I must be careful. Of course, sometimes crew members were hurt, but they would volunteer, even push me. For example, let's go through the rapids with a ship. And it's a big one. I mean, 320 tons. And if it crashes into the rocks, it has a momentum and a kinetic energy that's enormous.
And of course, almost everyone who was on board for filming and they pushed me, let's go on board and let's film this. Almost everyone was injured, but that does happen and it's a risk that we knew and we accepted it.
But my question still stands. Why do you think you're attracted to making films that put you in risky situations and that put you in extreme situations? It's one thing to have in the film a metaphor like dragging a ship over a mountain, but it's another thing to actually have to do it in your film. At that point, it's not a metaphor. At that point, it's something your crew has to do.
I hear you, yes. But I'm not searching for finding my boundaries or something. The extreme mountain climbers do that. That's not my thing. I know my boundaries and I accept them and I take no as an answer, for example. And I'm a professional person. I'm a filmmaker. And I want to come back with a film and I want to come back alive alive.
because I want to edit the film and I want to show it to audiences. So, for example, at the edge of a volcano, yes, there were certain dangers and there was an eruption and glowing slabs or blobs of lava came down on us, raining down, and some of them very large. I mean, the size of... the size of a car, the size even of a truck. So you better flee quickly. You get out of it.
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Chapter 5: Why does Herzog avoid deep introspection and psychoanalysis?
You talk about wanting to see the dark recesses of the soul, but you also write when it comes to your soul that you'd rather die than go to an analyst because it's your view that something fundamentally wrong happens there. And you say it's a mistake to light up your soul, shadows and darkness and all.
Why do you not want to light up your own soul but want to explore the dark recesses of other people's souls?
Well, that's my profession. That's my profession as a poet. And you look deep into who we are and you describe it. But you shouldn't make the mistake to believe that memoirs are confessional. I'm not into that business and I never liked too deep introspection. There's enough in my memoirs. There's enough introspection. There's no doubt it's in there, but to a certain limit.
And I do not want to step beyond a certain threshold. It is not healthy if you circle too much. around your own navel. And it is not good to recall all the traumata of your childhood. It's good to forget them. It's good to bury them. Not in all cases, but in most cases. So psychoanalysis is doing that. I do not deny that it is good and necessary in a very few cases.
Yes, I admit it, but it's not my thing. And I keep telling men. So you see, rather dead than going to a psychiatrist, but at the same time, rather dead than ever wearing a toupee. Yeah. You see, my hair is thinning and I just accept it as it is. So nothing, rather dead.
It's nice to know you have your values straight.
And women would immediately agree with me. You cannot live with a man who starts to wear a toupee and thinks he is handsome now and rejuvenated.
Are you afraid of what you'd see if you shone a light on your soul?
No, no, I know who I am and I know where I come from and I know where I'm heading toward. No fear and no regrets. Sure, I made massive mistakes and I'm in a way a result of my own defeats. So be it. They formed me. They made me thinking differently. beyond what I normally thought before.
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Chapter 6: What insights does Herzog share about his relationship with Klaus Kinski?
Chapter 7: How did Herzog's upbringing influence his view on humanity?
No, no, I know who I am and I know where I come from and I know where I'm heading toward. No fear and no regrets. Sure, I made massive mistakes and I'm in a way a result of my own defeats. So be it. They formed me. They made me thinking differently. beyond what I normally thought before.
One of the films that made you famous is Aguirre, The Wrath of God. And this is a film about a conquistador leading a Spanish expedition in South America, searching for El Dorado, the city of gold. And he goes mad along the way. He calls himself the wrath of God. What interests you about a mind that makes you want to write about it? Yeah.
Well, they are somehow touching a chord that's in us, something mad or borderline mad, something of power and dementia and madness. And through such figures, all of a sudden we have it spelled out. We can feel it. We can touch it. We can read it and sense it and start to compare it. Where I am standing, how mad am I myself?
Do you feel like you are mad?
No, no. I'm the only one in the entire profession who is clinically sane.
Explain that.
Oh, come on. I wouldn't have made some 80 films without having my wits together and my sanity and my professionalism. I'm the only one. When you look at the craze of Hollywood and all these red carpet events and the statements at the red carpet, which are all performative, it's all performative borderline insanity in a way, or saccharine... pink sort of vanilla ice cream emotions.
I'm the only one who is sane. The only one.
All right. I'm definitely taking your word for it.
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Chapter 8: What lessons does Herzog learn from his experiences in film?
poverty and since I had this experience for me it's obvious that there shouldn't be any war I'm against any war at all and of course it is terrible what we are witnessing now it is terrible it is terrible and it shouldn't be but what can I do I cannot fight as a volunteer in this war
Well, would you if you could? It sounds like you're against war and wouldn't want to participate in one.
You know, why I would participate if in Germany all of a sudden neo-Nazis started a rebellion, an armed rebellion, a coup d'etat. You would know who would be first one to rush back and pick up a weapon. It would be me. I would fight. Because?
Because.
Because something like times of the barbarism of the Nazis must not repeat itself. You see, as long as there is breath in me, I would fight.
I understand that.
And of course, having caused, having created the Holocaust, Germany has specific attention to Israel now. There's no doubt, but we also now, since it will be terrible what's coming, we also have to look after all the casualties on both sides.
We need to take another short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer and filmmaker Werner Herzog. His new memoir is called Every Man for Himself and God Against All. We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air. The first time you narrated a film was when you made a film for a production company in Germany that specialized in extreme subjects.
And you did a film for them about ski jumping, which you knew a lot about having grown up in the mountains in Bavaria. And you used to build, God, what are they called? Like platforms to jump off, to ski off of?
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