Tanya Mosley

This is Fresh Air.

I'm Tanya Mosley, and my guest on this Martin Luther King Jr.

holiday is author and scholar Heather McGee.

Her book, The Sum of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together, came out in 2021, but it reads like it was written for this exact moment.

The thesis is deceptively simple.

Racism doesn't just hurt the people it targets.

It hollows out the lives of everyone, including white Americans.

McGee traces the history of this country, showing how it is often chosen to destroy public goods rather than share them.

Just recently, President Trump told The New York Times that civil rights protections resulted in white people being very badly treated, that he calls it reverse discrimination.

the administration is dismantling diversity programs across government and urging white men to file federal discrimination complaints.

It has also removed the MLK holiday and Juneteenth from this year's fee-free days at national parks, a move many see as a direct assault on Dr. King's legacy.

In her book, McGee writes about research that shows many white Americans have come to believe anti-white bias is now more prevalent than anti-black bias, despite evidence to the contrary.

She set out to understand where this belief comes from, who profits from it, and what it costs all of us.

She calls her book both a diagnosis and a way out.

Heather McGee is the former president of Demos, a progressive think tank focused on democracy, the economy, and racial justice.

She's drafted legislation and testified before Congress on policy initiatives including debt-free college and voting rights protections.

She's a contributor to NBC's Meet the Press and delivered her 2019 TED Talk called Racism Has a Cost for Everyone.

Her podcast, The Sum of Us, extended the arguments in her book.

And Heather McGee, welcome back to Fresh Air.

Heather, I want to start by playing something for you.