The director of Black Panther and Creed talks about his new genre-bending vampire movie that takes place in the Jim Crow South. It's called Sinners and it stars Michael B. Jordan as twins working a juke joint in Mississippi. He spoke with Tonya Mosley about blues music, the supernatural, and why he wanted to own the movie outright after 25 years. Also, book critic Carolina Miranda reviews The Dream Hotel by Laila Lalami.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: Who is Ryan Coogler and what is his new film 'Sinners' about?
This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. And my guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. You probably know his name as the director of Fruitvale Station, Creed, and both Black Panther films. Well, his new film is called Sinners, and it hit theaters just last week. It delves into horror with a genre-bending thriller set in 1930s Mississippi.
The story follows twin brothers, Smoke and Stack, both played by Michael B. Jordan. After surviving the trenches of World War I and navigating Chicago's criminal underworld, the brothers return home to Mississippi, hoping to start fresh by opening a juke joint. But peace does not last long.
Instead, they're met by supernatural forces, vampires, who act as metaphors for oppression, exploitation, and systems that feed on Black life, body, and spirit. I only ever heard stories.
I ain't never come across them myself. What stories you heard? How haints work. They switch places with the soul of a man. But vampires is different. Maybe the worst kind. The soul gets stuck in the body. Can't rejoin the ancestors. Curse to live here with all this hate. Can't even feel the warmth of a sunrise. Okay then. Can we bring them back? Maybe if I kill the ones that made them this way.
Smoke. They have a connection, but they live on, even if the one that made them is killed. The best thing we can do for him is free his spirit from this curse. They got to be killed one by one.
How the hell do we do that?
Sunlight.
I wouldn't state that hard. Ryan Coogler says Sinners is also a tribute to his late Uncle James, who first introduced him to the blues. When he was a kid, Coogler would soak up his uncle's stories about Mississippi as old Delta Blues records spun in the background.
Coogler's debut into the film world happened in 2013 with Fruitvale Station, which chronicled the final hours of Oscar Grant, a young black man killed by police in Oakland. Since then, he's become the highest grossing Black filmmaker in history and the youngest director to helm a billion dollar movie with Black Panther.
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Chapter 2: Why did Ryan Coogler pause Black Panther 3 to make 'Sinners'?
You know, it took more time than any of us had anticipated it taking. You know, those movies tend to take about two years. You know, this one took four because of... The last Black Panther film, yeah. Yeah, Black Panther were kind of favorite. It was because of the tragic passing of Chadwick Boseman, rest in peace. The global pandemic happened.
And in making those films, man, like, there's so much interest. There's so many people involved. There's so many industries that are around.
When it comes to a Marvel film, right.
Yes, yes, yes. Because, you know, and it is... I'm not complaining about it, but there is a... a lot of pressure around those movies. And I just made two back to back. So I was coming off of both of those projects, knowing there was no way I was gonna do another one next. I was gonna have to do something different before I came back to that.
But for me, I got hit by almost like a bolt of lightning.
You said this particular film, Sinners, was like it was on your heart to do. And I want you to take us back to when that idea really clicked for you that not only the creation of a story like this, but that the story didn't have to live in one genre or even one reality because you're blending so much here. I mean, you're blending history, historical drama, action, history.
all against the backdrop of 1930s Mississippi. What made you realize that this mix was necessary to fully bring this story to life?
This movie was like all about dichotomy, you know, and that's something that I've been dealing with my whole life. You know, this feeling of not totally fitting in or things not totally squaring with each other. You know, like coming up, I was black, I was from Oakland, I was middle-class, and I was in these neighborhoods where my parents were kind of outliers.
They got married young and they went to college, but they stayed in their neighborhood, you know? So I constantly, as a kid, would feel like I was living in two different worlds. It was a dichotomy there. And I took the students serious. I was like a big old giant nerd. But I was also like a very, very serious athlete, you know.
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Chapter 3: How does 'Sinners' blend genres and what personal experiences influenced it?
Yes. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. It's important. That's such an important line because it brings into focus that these vampires are like draining more than blood. They're draining culture and identity, but they're also offering something back like in replacement of that. Like, how did you land on using vampires as a metaphor for that kind of extraction?
I mean, I'll be honest with you. To me, allegory, metaphor, all these things, I'm not going to tell you that they're not present in my work, right? But... I was not, in this case with this project, I was not being conscious of it. I was trying to communicate a feeling through cinematic language.
And the reality is, as I've gotten older in this business and in this craft, I realized that if I can make something true, it's up to the viewer to draw those parallels. You take the thing and you analyze it. And in your analysis, you might project your own experiences, your own knowledge, you know what I'm saying?
And you might draw certain parallels that weren't the parallels that I was intending, you know?
But I think it's super fascinating, though, that like when I asked you the question about like what drew you to this story and why you had to tell this story, you said immediately like my life experience is the reason why I wanted to tell this story. What drew you to a vampire story?
Yeah, I love vampires, man. I love horror fiction. I love horror movies. I love fantasy. I was raised around a lot of organized religion. And vampires intersect with all of that. You know what I mean? I also grew up in Oakland, which is... very dominated by street culture, you know.
And, you know, all these things, like I find vampires, they pull from all of that in terms of supernatural creatures, right? And I thought when the idea came to me for this movie, I thought about other supernatural creatures as a thing that they confront at the juke joint. I went down the line. I thought about werewolves. I thought about zombies.
I thought about shapeshifters, which in some indigenous cultures might be referred to as skinwalkers. I went through the whole Rolodex. And I kept coming back to vampires because of everything that the vampire implies in public consciousness. You know, vampires, it's not a steadfast rule, but it's pretty commonly associated with sensuality.
Vampires are expected to be sexy, usually expected to be fashionable, usually expected to be knowledgeable, usually expected to be very powerful. It's not... thought of as wrong if a vampire is converted to vampirism, but they maintain a human personality, you know, the human memories. It's a fascinating premise.
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Chapter 4: What is the metaphorical significance of vampires in 'Sinners'?
Jack O'Connell, who plays Rimmick, the Irish vampire antagonist, he is relatable kind of in the same way that I'm thinking about Killmonger and Black Panther was relatable. Like in many ways, saying kind of speaking the truth, speaking the truth to systems of oppression. What draws you to creating antagonists who are in many ways right about the things that they know?
It's not such a straight line, good guy, bad guy. Each one is complicated.
I think that's scarier.
It is scarier. Yes, say more about that.
I think it's more frightening when the film is about blues music, which is storytelling, but it's also a music that I think was made to help a people who are constantly under attack, to help them cope, to help them feel better, and to remind them that they were human. You know what I mean? To remind them. And that's what the music is.
And for me, to have a creature who's incredibly powerful, who was human at a time, who is in pain, you know, and who needs to cope in a way that only a community can give him. If I can make a film where you're afraid of this guy, you know what I mean? But that's really what's going on with him. I thought about it after I wrote it, and I said, oh, man, who does he lie to? And who is he honest with?
Because for me, it's very clear that he identifies with these people.
100%.
Yeah, yeah.
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Chapter 5: How does Ryan Coogler portray complex antagonists in his film?
Her mom is from the Philippines. You know what I'm saying? So her pops takes the test. He tests his X chromosome and his Y chromosome, right? His X chromosome comes back West African. Guess what his Y chromosome comes back? Chinese. Han Chinese. You know, this man is in his 90s. He opened that packet up and said, like, what the, you know what I mean? And where is he from? He was born in Chicago.
Where were his parents from? From Mississippi.
That's right.
So we started digging into it. You know what I'm saying? You know, we find out that, you know, my wife's black dad comes from these people. The erasure. You know, they were there. You know, that is not, you know, like what I just said, the only thing false in this movie is the vampires. You know what I'm saying? You know, they were absolutely there.
Our guest today is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll be back right after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.
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The scary new movie Sinners from the director of Black Panther finds Michael B. Jordan playing twin brothers. It's got vampires, it's got great music, and it's a fun one to see with a big crowd.
This is the most excited I've been about a movie in a very long time.
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Chapter 6: What historical and cultural themes are explored in 'Sinners'?
You know, and I know the story of my people and, you know, the fact that, um, what for many years has been the most powerful empire in the world, sentenced them to that being their life, working in these cash crop fields. And looking at it, seeing it for the first time, it messed me up. And I knew I wasn't done with it.
I'm really struck by what you said that, you know, the blues connected people to their humanity. It reminded them that they were human. And blues serves really as the sound and the soul of this film. Your relationship with the blues, you talk about your Uncle James. What music did he play around you? What was he into?
Man, he played all of it, man. He was big on Albert King. He was big on Muddy. He was big on Howlin' Wolf. He was big on Coco Taylor. Big on John Lee Hooker. Sonny Boy Williamson, Mississippi Fred McDowell. He was big on all of them, man.
You being a kid of the 80s and the 90s, what was it like for you to sit at his knee and listen to that music? Did you appreciate it at that young age?
I just liked being with him. I wasn't thinking about the music. I associated it with him. And at that time, the blues wasn't for, I didn't think the blues was for me. I didn't think it was mine. It was just all man's. And to be honest with you, I thought the blues was for white people. You know what I'm saying? Because at that time,
You know, you had, like, the movie The Blues Brothers, which I hadn't seen, but, you know, on the poster, it was these white dudes with these hats. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know? And so I was like, okay, you know, the blues is for all black people, and it's for white people. You know what I'm saying? Because I was listening to Tupac, and what's crazy is my favorite song...
group and music video was Bone Thugs Crossroads not even knowing not even knowing that like you know like the crossroads is like you know what I'm saying like that's a blues thing you know what I mean like it made its way in the Cleveland Gangsta Rap but it was really that you know but I didn't know I was a kid and it took my uncle dying and then me listening to the music without him anymore to explain it to me
But I'm trying to hang on to every word, trying to see if I could get a clue about my uncle's life or why he liked this stuff. You know what I'm saying? And then, boom, I realized the brilliance of it. This was the base that everything came out of.
How did legendary blues guitarist Buddy Guy become part of this project? It was so cool to see him. That was a really cool cameo.
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Chapter 7: How did Ryan Coogler’s personal family history influence the film's narrative?
And he said when he left home to become a blues musician, he told his mom he was going to make enough money to buy her a polka dot Cadillac. You know, and she passed away before he could do it. So the polka dots became his trademark. You know what I'm saying? And just that story of him having, like me imagining this nearly 90-year-old man having to explain to his mom, hey, I'm going to leave home.
I'm going to try to go make it with this guitar. You know, while she's in what was a slave shack in Louisiana. You know what I mean? Like sharecropping. You know, and he's here in 2025 completely lucid telling me all about it.
Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Ryan Coogler. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.
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Chapter 8: What role does blues music play in 'Sinners' and in Ryan Coogler’s life?
I was born in the wake of the military defeat of the Black Panthers. So that dream of a better life in the West, you know, that was gone.
You did not grow up with that myth that where you are is better than the South.
No, I grew up. Look, the first movie I seen in theaters was Boys in the Hood, you know, which, which, which, which, you know, I was five years old. My dad took me to see that movie. And, you know, I was that was what was happening, you know, down the highway five from us. You know, I was four years old.
You saw Boys in the Hood at four years old?
I might have been actually five. Yeah. I was born in 86. I think that movie came out in 91. Yeah, I was five years old. My dad was a dad in his 20s. He heard that he had just lost his father before I was born. My mom's dad died before I was born. Both my parents' fathers died within two weeks of each other. Right after they got married.
And, you know, I heard that this was a movie black fathers should text their sons to. So he took me, you know. Did the same thing with Malcolm X like six months later.
Five years old in the theater watching Boys in the Hood. Do you remember the scenes that like were seared into your brain that stuck with you? Because that's a real powerful movie for a five-year-old.
I remember the whole movie. My memory with movies is pretty solid. Yeah, I remember all of it. I saw Malcolm X shortly after. It was really ironic because we just premiered Sinners in that same room at that same theater. And my dad sat in the same row.
You noted in the moment that like, wow, my dad is sitting in that same row. Absolutely, man.
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