America is a deeply spiritual nation. Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual in some way. But – at the same time – we're getting less religious. So for people who are spiritual-but-not-religious – what's replacing organized religion? What do they believe – and where does that show up in their day-to-day lives? In our new series called Losing My Religion, It's Been a Minute is going to find out. This week, we're getting into psychedelics. That's an umbrella that includes the drugs LSD, magic mushrooms, peyote, and often ketamine and MDMA too, among others. And some of these drugs have a history of spiritual practice spanning millennia. But there's a new group that's really taking on the psychedelic mantle: tech bros and CEOS. Brittany is joined by Maxim Tvorun-Dunn, PhD candidate at the University of Tokyo, and Emma Goldberg, business reporter at the New York Times, to discuss what it means that these drugs are getting championed – and sometimes financially backed – by the tech elite, and how might that affect our culture's relationship to psychedelics as spiritual tools.Support public media and receive ad-free listening & bonus content. Join NPR+ today.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: What is the main topic of this episode?
A warning, this segment contains mentions of drug use. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. America is a deeply spiritual nation. Over 70% of us say that we feel spiritual in some way. But at the same time, we're also getting less religious.
When asked to check a box next to their religious affiliation, 28% of Americans check the box labeled none. The nuns, as they're sometimes called, are now the biggest religious group in the United States. And 22% identify as spiritual but not religious, otherwise known as SBNRs. But for SBNRs, what's replacing organized religion? What do they believe?
And where does that belief show up in all our lives? Well, on our new series called Losing My Religion, we're going to find out. Today, we're getting into psychedelics. That's an umbrella term that includes LSD, magic mushrooms, peyote, and often ketamine and MDMA too, among others. And more people are taking psychedelics now than ever before. Ever heard the phrase spirit journey?
The trips people have on these substances are often described in spiritual terms. And some of these psychedelics have a history of spiritual practice spanning millennia. But there's a new group that's really taking on the psychedelic mantle. Tech bros and CEOs. OpenAI's Sam Altman.
Chapter 2: How are psychedelics being redefined by tech elites?
Psychedelic therapy was definitely one of the most important things in my life. Elon Musk. There are times when I have a negative chemical state in my brain. Ketamine is helpful for getting one out of a negative frame of mind.
And Google co-founder Sergey Brin, to name a few. These substances have different shades of legality throughout the U.S., but some of these tech bros are trying to change that by funding startups that might bring psychedelic therapies to the public. So what does it mean that psychedelics are getting championed and sometimes financially backed by the tech elite?
And how might that affect our culture's relationship to psychedelics as spiritual tools? I'm joined by Maxime Tvarun Dunn, PhD candidate at the University of Tokyo. Happy to be here. And Emma Goldberg, business reporter at The New York Times.
Thanks for having us on.
To find out. Okay, so we are here to talk about psychedelics. How do you see them fitting into a spiritual but not religious practice?
For a lot of people, I think work and career has almost taken up the place that religious community might have taken in their lives in previous generations. So I think some people do feel this sense of spiritual emptiness and they're casting around for like, how do I give some sort of structure to wanting to ask like deeper questions about spiritual meaning?
Just to like touch on the science for a second, I think it's not surprising some people are turning to psychedelics because... literally of the effect that they have on the brain. Because typically I think what our brains do is it's almost like a zip file. Like they're trying to compress all the information that's coming in and make it digestible for us and like zip it all up and condense it.
And what psychedelics do is basically the opposite. So they like flood our brain with information and make connections within the brain that normally wouldn't happen. And so people might actually come to realizations or ask questions that they wouldn't be able to do without psychedelics.
That being said, I think some people turn to psychedelics instead of climbing this staircase of expanding your consciousness and asking deeper questions. You're just trying to get in an elevator and like zoom right to the top floor.
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Chapter 3: What is the history of psychedelics in corporate culture?
Chapter 4: How do psychedelics fit into the spiritual but not religious movement?
And how might that affect our culture's relationship to psychedelics as spiritual tools? I'm joined by Maxime Tvarun Dunn, PhD candidate at the University of Tokyo. Happy to be here. And Emma Goldberg, business reporter at The New York Times.
Thanks for having us on.
To find out. Okay, so we are here to talk about psychedelics. How do you see them fitting into a spiritual but not religious practice?
For a lot of people, I think work and career has almost taken up the place that religious community might have taken in their lives in previous generations. So I think some people do feel this sense of spiritual emptiness and they're casting around for like, how do I give some sort of structure to wanting to ask like deeper questions about spiritual meaning?
Just to like touch on the science for a second, I think it's not surprising some people are turning to psychedelics because... literally of the effect that they have on the brain. Because typically I think what our brains do is it's almost like a zip file. Like they're trying to compress all the information that's coming in and make it digestible for us and like zip it all up and condense it.
And what psychedelics do is basically the opposite. So they like flood our brain with information and make connections within the brain that normally wouldn't happen. And so people might actually come to realizations or ask questions that they wouldn't be able to do without psychedelics.
That being said, I think some people turn to psychedelics instead of climbing this staircase of expanding your consciousness and asking deeper questions. You're just trying to get in an elevator and like zoom right to the top floor.
But that's like missing all the work of like climbing and the exertion that actually comes from grappling with some of the questions that people might be trying to answer.
Right. A common selling point for ayahuasca, for example, is that it's like 10 years of therapy in one day, that you can get all that processing without all that time. But also, I think more and more psychedelics are being associated with tech bros and CEOs who either do these substances or fund psychedelic startups or both.
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Chapter 5: Why are tech companies incorporating psychedelics into the workplace?
Chapter 6: What are the implications of using psychedelics for self-optimization?
And so you end up with a lot of indigenous communities that don't really have a lot of resources anymore. and are kind of being morphed and reshaped by American tourist interests.
I get the sense that when these guys are doing this, they are optimizing, they're expanding, their minds are getting an edge on the competition.
But when others use some of these substances, you know, and depending on where they might be policed in the United States, or even culturally, I'm not sure that indigenous people engaging in their own practices with these drugs would get the same kind of cachet. I wonder why our psychedelics may be seen as more culturally permissible or even laudable when rich tech bros do them.
I mean, it's been, I think, one of the reasons that so many people have viewed the kind of emergence of this corporate psychedelic culture with so much skepticism. And I saw this when I reported on the CEOs who went to this psychedelic CEO retreat, that so many...
The people I interviewed in the course of reporting the article were asking, like, wait a minute, if one of their workers came to the CEOs and said that they had done some kind of drugs, whether psychedelics or something else, would they have been fired or would they have been disciplined?
Like, how does it happen that someone just kind of comes to a position of authority where they then suddenly place themselves above the rules? And it's been particularly interesting. devastating in the context of the fact that a lot of people in this country and in this country's history have been imprisoned over really punitive drug laws.
And then all of a sudden, drugs that are more associated with the wealthy or the white or the powerful are put on another level. On the other hand, I think a lot of the researchers who do work on psychedelics point out that there's very little evidence of risks associated with them.
A lot of the researchers who study the effects on things like depression or addiction have found that they can be really helpful when they're done safely and in supervised environments. And so I think those two sort of dynamics are both at play here.
There's also a lot of power from Silicon Valley behind legalization pushes and new companies that aim to market psychedelics to the public. Maxime, you've been critical of this. You basically said that CEOs of tech companies aren't just trying to insinuate themselves into our lives through tech, but to also guide our spiritual lives through psychedelics. Can you say more about that?
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Chapter 7: How does the tech industry's culture affect personal spirituality?
He had a quote saying that he was getting into biohacking as a means to, quote, help make us immortal post-human gods that cast off the limits of our biology and spread across the universe. Really kind of new age stuff. Sam Altman, you know, he recently talked about psychedelics as, quote, one of the most transformative things in his life.
Sam Altman also invested in a libertarian city-state project called Praxis Nation.
Right, not him personally, but his venture firm that he runs with his brothers. I'll read the description from the Praxis Nation website really quick. Praxis is, quote, A home for the brave who strive for virtue and wisdom. Our purpose is to restore Western civilization and pursue our ultimate destiny of life among the stars.
The Praxian way of life is driven by vital energy that seeks transcendence through heroic action and contemplation.
That line, heroic action, contemplation, is taken from the Italian fascist author, Julius Evola. Their slogan on their website is, reclaim the West. About as fascist as you can get. And so I think this rhetoric shares a lot of overlaps with the discourse around psychedelics in Silicon Valley as something that's providing this kind of vitalist, masculine, transcendent contemplation.
You know, ultimately, given all that power behind bringing psychedelics to the public, what does the future of psychedelics look like, not just for tech bros and CEOs, but for people who do want to bring them into their own spiritual practices?
Yeah. For me, I think people have the agency to do whatever things they would like to and go about them as they do outside of a legalistic view. But I think, as we've mentioned, I'm worried that as these become more common and more commonplace, people are going to be engaging with them only in a very commercialized and consumable form.
You're going to see a lot of kind of integration with data harvesting apps. You have lots of startups that are promoting at-home psychedelic therapy with an app. you're going to see some startups keep all of that data and sell it to marketers.
And so it is a way of integrating psychedelics with all the other forms of data capitalism and platform capitalism that are already across the Silicon Valley industry.
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