In Mickalene Thomas' work, Black women are front and center. "We've been supportive characters for far too long," she says. "I would describe my art as radically shifting notions of beauty by claiming space." Her new exhibition of collages, paintings, and photographs is called All About Love. She spoke with Tonya Mosley about how she "draws with scissors," using her mother as a muse, and her reinterpretation of Manet. Also, David Bianculli reviews the new documentary Beatles '64.Learn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy
Chapter 1: Who is Mickalene Thomas and what does her art represent?
Thomas's art made me think about the slew of recent articles in the New York Times, Associated Press, Teen Vogue, and others that delve into the sentiment many Black women felt after the outcome of the presidential race. One headline read, Disillusioned by the election, some Black women are deciding to rest.
Thomas's art showcases Black women not in servitude, as often depicted in fine art, but at leisure, claiming space. She often recasts scenes from the 19th century French paintings, centering Black sensuality and power.
And she's also collaborated with singer Solange for an album cover, and she painted the first individual portrait of First Lady Michelle Obama, which was displayed at the National Portrait Gallery. Her latest exhibition, All About Love, is midway through an international tour with stops in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and France.
It features 50 paintings, collages, and photography spanning over two decades, inspired by the women in her life, including her mother, who died in 2012. Mickalene Thomas, welcome to Fresh Air, and I know you're battling a cold, so I want to thank you for taking the time to talk with us with this raging cold.
Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I'm not too congested.
I want to talk about this latest conversation that many Black women are having, because as we know, Black women sit at this intersection of race and gender, which for better or worse, actually means that our existence is political. And I'm just wondering, as an artist whose muses are Black women, how would you describe your art and the messages that it's conveying?
I think I would describe my art as radically shifting sort of notions of beauty by claiming space that has been often not have us on the platform as the leading character. We've been supportive characters for far too long and
historical images and that my art gives black women their flowers and let them know that they are the leading role and validating that and so there's intersections of using and juxtaposing historical tropes but also Disrupting and breaking sort of down those notions of beauty, of ideation that is hold to what is beauty, right?
And so for me, I just look around my community within my world and started with my mother.
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Chapter 2: How does Mickalene Thomas celebrate Black women in her art?
Most of my family members were going to see my work for the first time in person, like my aunts and uncles, my cousins.
They had never seen it prior to.
Yeah, even my father showed up. My brothers brought my father. And a lot of times, you know, people have their own understanding of art. And sometimes, you know, art can be a little elitist and we kind of go off and do things and it's conceptual and, you know, visually you might not understand. And some of them were going to see my mother and reposed in the nude.
They would see me reposed and reclined in a nude. And they may go, why are you doing that? Yeah. It's so interesting. Why are you showing all that? Why are you exposing yourself?
I think it's so interesting, you know, artists who create work and the world sees it. I mean, the world sees your nude body and your mother in repose. But those who are the closest, you feel like there's the most anxiety around showing it to them. What has been their reaction?
Well, one of my cousins was like, why are you going to go and show your mom that way? And I said, well, you know, my mother loves being shown that way. She actually gave me the permission to photograph her exposed. And so I think for them, they were so proud and excited to just be a part of it. Most of them came to the opening night, which was a gala event. So it was a
You know, it's like very just like colorful and just lots of different types of people and the music and the energy. So I think for them to experience that part of my life made them feel special. Because I admit, I haven't always been open to sharing that part of my life.
How did it feel for you to have them receive it?
Freeing. It felt freeing and it felt supportive. And just to see the smiles. My brother stood in front of one of the paintings of my mother titled Dim All the Lights. She's wearing a red and black sweater and her hands are on the side. And it was quite beautiful to watch him engage with with the painting.
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Chapter 3: What was the reaction of Mickalene Thomas's family to her exhibition?
some of your works, um, they also like directly reference scenes from your own life, but also classic compositions from, from the fine art canon. So there's the, um, your interpretation of the 1862 French painting luncheon in the grass.
Yes.
Yeah. You, you take those paintings and then turn them into black representations. Do you remember how that idea in particular to take on luncheon in the grass came about?
Yeah, I do. It was, uh, An idea I had, I was already working with the images. I've seen like Renee Cox. There's been a lot of artists who work with luncheon and grass as a concept of shifting sort of the paradigm of sort of the black bodies and sort of these Western canon ideas.
histories and I wanted to lie myself and sort of it was through actually Ramir Bearden that I started thinking about Lunching in the Grass and thinking about what it would mean to have three black women
seated in this position and it came from a commission that was presented to me by Klaus Biesenbach at the time he was the curator of photography and media at MoMA and also the director of MoMA PS1 and so he commissioned me to present a body of work in the window of the modern. And I immediately knew when I saw the space that I wanted to do Le Dijonais.
One, because of the opportunity of the space that it was going to be located. Two, because I had the opportunity for the first time to shoot sites specifically at the MoMA and the Sculpture Garden with the Matisse in the background. And three, I knew that many people would see this.
Yeah.
And then it was going to be my largest painting to that date. At that point, I was only working like four by five or four by five feet or like no larger than six feet.
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Chapter 4: How does Mickalene Thomas reinterpret classic art pieces?
Chapter 5: What challenges has Mickalene Thomas faced in the art world?
are the half-dressed woman, the bather, and the one woman undressed as three powerful women who are fully clothed, seated, and not at a picnic, just lounging and giving each other their flowers. And I thought that was very important for me, as you see them, see her handing flowers. As a way, for me, as black women seeing each other as a sisterhood of community,
I think that's mostly what I wanted to convey, sort of this bond, this sisterhood, this love between black women that I grew up experiencing.
What was the reaction from folks?
Oh, my gosh. I think if Instagram was around then, I probably would have had a million followers.
Yeah, because this was what year? It was in 2010.
It was 2010. And it stayed at the modern window for about two years. And I think the modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum. Which was amazing because— Also, right, it was also— It was on 53rd Street. You know, you walk by, you look like, what is this? And I think people expected to see more inside.
But they weren't getting more of that. But it just speaks to what you had been told, though, about the desire to see black art.
Yeah. I think— You know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces and you just, you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art, then you start to see elements of yourself. And this is just with their permanent collections. Now they're starting to realize that there have been gaps and they're collecting...
histories right that's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role and like it's a historical imprint it is I mean for me I have to say that art I would I think that art has saved my life for sure I you know growing up going to after school programs at the Newark Museum like it was like for me this safe haven this comfort this Refuge. I love going there after school.
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Chapter 6: How does Mickalene Thomas use unconventional materials in her work?
Chapter 7: What impact does representation in art have on communities?
What was the reaction from folks?
Oh, my gosh. I think if Instagram was around then, I probably would have had a million followers.
Yeah, because this was what year? It was in 2010.
It was 2010. And it stayed at the modern window for about two years. And I think the modern kept it there because they kept saying that it was bringing a large demographic of people into the museum. Which was amazing because— Also, right, it was also— It was on 53rd Street. You know, you walk by, you look like, what is this? And I think people expected to see more inside.
But they weren't getting more of that. But it just speaks to what you had been told, though, about the desire to see black art.
Yeah. I think— You know, we have to see images of ourselves. I mean, you go through a lot of the different spaces and you just, you know, unless you go to the specified or spaces of African art or Egyptian art, then you start to see elements of yourself. And this is just with their permanent collections. Now they're starting to realize that there have been gaps and they're collecting...
histories right that's really interesting in thinking about how art plays such a role and like it's a historical imprint it is I mean for me I have to say that art I would I think that art has saved my life for sure I you know growing up going to after school programs at the Newark Museum like it was like for me this safe haven this comfort this Refuge. I love going there after school.
I love doing all the craft projects, the paper mache, you know, exploring different ways of making self-portraits or building houses with popsicle sticks and all of those things that you were doing or like, you know, the taller paper tubes and, you know, making constructions, you know.
It was an outlet, but it wasn't like a career path for you back then.
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