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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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All right. Welcome back to another episode of The Debrief covering season three, Finding Heidi. I'm Jacob Saffel. We're going to continue to dive into this thing. This week's a fun one because we had a little bit of a finale fake out last week with episode 15, which in the end was simply a pause, really, because we knew some more information was coming and now we haven't.
But if you're following along, we're going to be digging into episodes 16 and 18 today. Don't forget we're on YouTube as well. So if you are a visual person, if you want to kind of keep up with us there, you can do that as well as for all subscribers. These videos are going to be available in the War Room for season three as well. So you can always go there. But yeah, Ryan, how are we doing?
I'm doing very good.
Chapter 2: How did the finale fake-out affect the investigation?
Thank you, Jacob. Looking forward to diving into these episodes. It's always nice to kind of refresh my memory of this journey that I went on through this time. So like we were just saying, so much came out through these episodes. So it is interesting to go back through it all.
absolutely man um well without you know anything else let's go ahead and get into it um so with episode 16 man you come off the top of this one and um you know it's kind of that that evergreen frustration that people like yourself have where you do all of this work in an investigation and you and you you uncover what you think you needed to and you lay it at the feet of the people that can do something about it and you kind of have to rely on them you can either do something or not um
And you kind of leave that dichotomy out there at the beginning. And unfortunately, at the point that episode 16 begins, nothing had been done. All of this information that you had uncovered in a 15 episode podcast had been given to the authorities and nothing had taken shape at that point. So obviously, a lot of time has passed since then.
But at that moment, kind of walk me through that mentality. Does that discourage you? Does that just light an even bigger fire under you? What does that feel like?
Yeah, I recall that now.
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Chapter 3: What challenges did Ryan face with the authorities?
And, you know, I think at this time, in terms of the work I'd been doing on my previous seasons, you know, nothing compared to what I felt like I'd revealed in the past. sorry, what I felt like I'd revealed in this moment, which felt like, you know, this was one of the biggest cases in New Zealand history in terms of how well known it is and sort of the mystery surrounding it.
And I felt like I'd sort of said, well, Here we have like this makes sense now. You know, we've got this guy saying he saw Heidi. It's corroborated. There's so much here. It to me, it seemed like, well, when I released these episodes, there's no doubt that police journalists are going to be interested in this and we're going to get some traction.
And, you know, I released the episodes and, and partly that's why I released those three episodes sort of at the same time. And I kind of just sort of waited, waited and nothing happened. And, um, I think back to that time now and I feel like it also shows my sort of naivety in the space that I felt like I was just going to do that and then something was going to happen, right?
You know, I think about things completely differently now. But yeah, I think it was those two things. And I think the naivety and then the surprise and frustration sort of came through there.
Chapter 4: How did James Turner respond to the investigation?
And that's why I added that sort of bit at the beginning there. And what Jacob's referring to is, you know, at the start, I'm sort of like... I'm having a bit of a whinge that nothing's happened. I've put all of this stuff out and nothing's happened. And I'm trying to say to people, look, spread the word and we need to do something to get this out.
And in reality, that was, I don't know when I released that, a couple of years ago now, a lot happened from there. And to be fair, journalists did end up getting on board. It's been the podcast, myself, I've been on TV and a number of news articles and eventually worked with the police for a long time. Well, yeah, alongside them for a long time. So things did happen.
I just was naive at that time as to how quickly these things happen and as to how you make things happen. What I learned is you don't make things happen by simply releasing a podcast episode and hoping everyone listens and just does whatever you say. So that was my own naivety. But I think it goes to show, yeah, things don't happen the way people think they do.
And this happens as well with Witnesses.
people who come forward to me with information or they hear things they share that same frustration i think at times where they're like why is this not happening why is this not happening and sometimes that frustration they have is like targeted towards me you know and i'm like well it doesn't work that way you know unfortunately i wish it did but just finding things um however
groundbreaking it is is not enough uh you know the standard of proof the police require is so high uh for you know for genuine reasons but you know there's just there's so many elements to to these things uh but you know like listening back to that you know it
I sort of cringe at it now because I think, wow, I was just so much more immature as a journalist at that point in terms of my understanding of everything. But also when I hear that, it just reminds me of how
how deep I was in these cases emotionally, how much was going on, you know, including, you know, like there was fears for safety of myself and other people and, you know, and all of that is building into this, you know, this boiling kettle that was sort of like feeling like it needed was needed to pop. And I felt like at the time that,
it was almost like I needed that exposure from, um, from the police and from, from, you know, your sort of landmark media to sort of protect me and the people involved a little bit to get it out in the public. And it didn't happen, but, um, yeah, that's where I was at that time with that. Uh, yeah. So, um, yeah, it just makes me, it just reminds me of, of the craziness of that time.
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Chapter 5: What critical information did James Turner reveal?
But there's a boon here because we got the next best thing, which was the other brother, James Turner. And you were able to actually have a conversation with him. So first of all, tell me how that kind of came about. And did he reach out to you?
So, yeah, that was a real sort of turning point, I think, in the season in a way. Eventually, I reached out to him, and I'll never forget when I first gave him that call. And, you know, you're kind of nervous because you don't know where this is going to go.
And at this point, all I had heard was all these terrible things about him and the kind of person he was and that he was aligned with his brother and so on. And I remember I called him and as soon as I said who I was, he was like, ah, I've been waiting for you to call sort of thing, you know?
And I think all of us that have listened to the podcast now and you become familiar with James and how he speaks and it's probably, it's not what you expect. Um, he's quite disarming in the way that he, he is. And, um, Yeah, anyway, he sort of says like, yep, let's chat and invites me to come around to his house. He says he's not mobile really because he's got a health problem.
And I was like, shit, because... You know, you're thinking at this point, all I've been told, you know, and what Darren is telling me at this time is that James is one of the killers too. You've got his brother and James. This is what Darren is saying. And everything I'm hearing is that, yeah, James is this bad guy.
And now this guy I've just spoken to on the phone is saying, yeah, come, come around, come into the lion's den. And I remember thinking that, And I was kind of like, it was a real moment where I was thinking, this is probably not a smart thing to do. But I remember calling a friend and I was like, hey, dude, what are you doing today? Do you want to come on a little mission?
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Chapter 6: What relationship dynamics are explored in the Turner family?
All you have to do is come and sit in the car. You don't have to do anything. And he said, no, I can't, man. Sorry. And there was no one else that could. And I didn't want to delay it. I just remember thinking, I just have to do this. I just have to do this. And my wife at the time was not too impressed, but I remember driving all the way over to where he was. It was a decent drive.
And you're just thinking along the way, like coming up with sort of a plan. I took my German shepherd with me for some reason, thinking that that might help me. Uh, and I remember, yeah, arriving at his place and I think there was, um, I was obviously looking to see if there was other cars there and so on. And I didn't see anything and I didn't know. Yeah. I had no idea what I was walking into.
Right. Like, could I walk in there and David Turner's there too. And they're like, you know, pissed at me or whatever. I'm really just going off of that short conversation I'd had with James on the phone that he was to be trusted. And, um, Yeah, I get there and go in and he's hooked to basically like an oxygen thing because he had COPD, which is like a lung, like an oxygen-related disease. And...
Yeah, and we sit there and we sit in his lounge and he was watching the rugby, I think the All Blacks had played that morning and he was watching a replay of the rugby, which is a great icebreaker in New Zealand. And we sat down and I sat down on a couch opposite him and, you know, and proceeded to have the conversation that we heard in the podcast for the most part.
And
I remember as I was sitting there thinking constantly, there's a road that ran right past and every time I'd hear a car or something and it sounded like it might be coming in, I'd be sort of thinking, shit, who's that? Uh, you know, wondering who it might be.
Like I kept having a vision of there was a door just to my right of, you know, someone coming around that door, you know, and how I was going to get out of there. Um, I remember him saying to me when I was sitting there, I can't remember if this was in the podcast or not, but he said last time he saw his brother, he was sitting in the seat.
I was in pointing a shotgun at him, you know, and yeah, you know, whether, whether that was true or it was an exaggeration, I don't know, but, um, Yeah, it sort of doesn't put you necessarily at ease. But obviously, you know, David Turner never showed up that day. And it was the start of what became sort of a long... Is friendship the right word? I don't know.
But James and I kind of became friends over the following 18 months or whatever, a couple of years. He ended up helping a lot as we went on and much of what happened hasn't been released yet and will be soon once we conclude these debrief episodes and then I'm going to release the final stuff in relation to this season and I'll talk more about what happened. It's interesting to think how it
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Chapter 7: How did Carla's perspective change the narrative?
I think we all kind of went into it with the same kind of apprehension as listeners too, you know, because, I mean, this is right on the heels of the last conversation you had in episode 15, which was with David, which was the other end of the spectrum, right? So we kind of just expected it to kind of go that way as well.
But that being said, you know, what he does do is he brings a lot of, he serves as a character witness, so to speak, that is really close to the action, right? He's really close to these people. I mean, these are his family. And it's easy, I think, for us as listeners to kind of
caricature people in our minds like if if if we're talking about someone that's capable of doing the things that we're suggesting they may be capable of doing then we just kind of make them out to be a villain in our heads and that's a very one-dimensional thing um but what he does you know like when he's talking about his dad don senior um and how you know
Yes, he was hard and intimidating if he needed to be. But if you didn't cross him, he was he was a nice guy by all accounts. Was there any of those that he talk about anybody in this conversation that at least in his family that he he kind of gave you a completely different perception of than when than what you had walking in?
yeah i mean i suppose as you know as well we talk about his um his younger brother donald jr as well we ended up speaking about him at some length and you know it was quite sad because and this was this was part of it that you know meeting him was interesting on a number of levels because it created It created some doubt in my mind about the whole story a little bit, right? Because.
I had Darren telling me that James was right there over urban, you know, that he was one of the killers and so on. And then I go in and James says, no, that's bullshit. I was, I was never there. Like that's, you know, and you start thinking, okay, but then he didn't say he didn't refute that, that his brother was there. Like he, he didn't refute that.
He didn't go so far as to say his brother did it, but he, he also didn't, he didn't say that, you know, he certainly didn't say he didn't.
But then he also spoke about his younger brother, too, and that not so long before his younger brother had passed away that he had actually come and seen James and spoken to him about some sort of historical stuff, like some abuse that had happened when he was young that James wasn't aware of involving the other brother. Yeah, it was sad, and I think it made me feel comfortable.
I mean, I knew that what he was saying was partially true because I had already spoken to Donald Turner Jr. 's wife. And it made me feel like, well, as far as I understood, Donald Turner Jr. was a good bad guy. He'd done some bad things, but he was an okay guy. And so if he trusted James and if he was...
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Chapter 8: What conclusions can be drawn about the Turners' involvement?
Yeah, that was a, yeah, that's just, I'm glad you brought that up because that was a, um, that was a moment that, yeah, exactly. Until I'd met James in person and removed that veil and realized, okay, like without the, before I'd met him, the veil was there and behind that veil was this monster. And so when I'm reading those words, I'm sort of thinking, you know, they're both guilty. Exactly.
And then when I went back and looked at that again, after meeting him and after meeting someone who said, I wasn't there, you have to trust me, I wasn't there. And then now knowing, okay, well, Donald had kind of gone and seen him and this sort of makes sense. Exactly. And then I realized, hang on a second. As far as Dave goes, they're both guilty. There are two Daves. They're both guilty.
And I realized that he wasn't meaning his James was there. He was saying Dave was there, the other Dave and that Dave. And it just made sense. And it was kind of like a light bulb moment. And it was a big part for me of feeling like I could remove James from that picture, that I could trust this guy. You know what I mean?
I've learned in this job, like sometimes there's been people that I've believed were, you know, what they were telling me. And it's turned out they were lying. There's been a couple of them.
Um, it's really hard sometimes some people are really good liars, especially if drugs are involved in things, but I really felt like I could, I was, you know, going away thinking, man, I believe him, I believe him, but should I believe him, you know? And that was that kind of problem I was having.
But when I reread that and after I'd met him and I just thought like, no, I really think he's being honest. And then I speak to Jodie, his ex-partner, and I start filling in that picture more in terms of things related to him. And everything that I start finding actually starts to corroborate what James is saying is that He was a menace to people, but he was no murderer.
And when I had those words, yeah, they're both guilty. And then it was such a pivotal moment for me and a moment I felt like, okay, I could believe him. Now we can move on and see where this goes from here. But at the same time, there's all of this. Darren at that point was...
it was it was a difficult thing for me right because you've got darren and you're believing what he's telling you but both can't be true both can't be true so i can't and this is difficult right because i'm not i don't want to undermine what darren's saying by then saying to darren well now i believe james because then he's like well what about my story you know and that's a difficult thing
So then you're starting to try and say, okay, well, how can we compromise? And you don't want to think like that. But I started to just think, okay, there could be more that's happened here. There's a bit of a ā this is a bit ā more gray in terms of what's happened here than I think. Is there some reason why perhaps Darren's included James there? Or could he have been mistaken? Or...
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