Essentials: Understand and Use Dreams to Learn and Forget
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Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, we're going to talk about dreaming, learning during dreaming, as well as unlearning during dreaming, in particular, unlearning of challenging emotional events. Now, numerous people throughout history have tried to make sense of dreams in some sort of organized way, the most famous of which, of course, is Sigmund Freud, who talked about symbolic representations in dreams. A lot of that has been kind of debunked, although I think that there's some interest in what the symbols of dreaming are. And this is something that we'll talk about in more depth today, although not Freudian theory in particular.
So I think in order to really think about dreams and what to do with them and how to maximize the dream experience for sake of learning and unlearning, the best way to address this is to look at the physiology of sleep, to really address what do we know concretely about sleep? So first of all, as we get sleepy, we tend to shut our eyes, and that's because there are some autonomic centers in the brain, some neurons that control closing of the eyelids when we get sleepy. And then we transition into sleep. And sleep, regardless of how long we sleep, is generally broken up into a series of 90-minute cycles, these ultradian cycles. So early in the night, These 90 minute cycles tend to be comprised more of shallow sleep and slow wave sleep. And we tend to have less so-called REM sleep, R-E-M sleep, which stands for rapid eye movement sleep. For every 90 minute cycle that we have during a night of sleep, we tend to start having more and more REM sleep. So more of that 90 minute cycle is comprised of REM sleep and less of slow wave sleep.
Now this is true regardless of whether or not you wake up at the middle of the night to use the restroom or your sleep is broken. The more sleep you're getting across the night, the more REM sleep you're going to have. And REM sleep and non-REM, as I'll refer to it, have distinctly different roles in learning and unlearning, and they are responsible for learning and unlearning of distinctly different types of information. And this has enormous implications for learning of motor skills, for unlearning of traumatic events, or for processing emotionally challenging, as well as emotionally pleasing events. And as we'll see, one can actually leverage their daytime activities in order to access more slow wave sleep or non-REM sleep, as we'll call it, or more REM sleep, depending on your particular emotional and physical needs. So it's really a remarkable stage of life that we have a lot more control and power over than you might believe.
So let's start by talking about slow wave sleep or non-REM sleep. So slow wave sleep is characterized by a particular pattern of brain activity in which the brain is metabolically active, but that there's these big sweeping waves of activity that include a lot of the brain. Now, the interesting thing about slow wave sleep are the neuromodulators that tend to be associated with it that are most active and least active during slow-wave sleep. And here's why. To remind you, neuromodulators are these chemicals that act rather slowly, but their main role is to bias particular brain circuits to be active and other brain circuits to not be active. and they are associated as a consequence with certain brain functions.
So we know for instance, and just to review, acetylcholine in waking states is a neuromodulator that tends to amplify the activity of brain circuits associated with focus and attention. Norepinephrine is a neuromodulator that tends to amplify the brain circuits associated with alertness and the desire to move. Serotonin is the neuromodulator that's released and tends to amplify the circuits in the brain and body that are associated with bliss and the desire to remain still. And dopamine is the neuromodulator that's released and is associated with amplification of the neural circuits in the brain and body associated with pursuing goals and pleasure and reward.
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