In this episode of Huberman Lab Essentials, my guest is Dr. Karl Deisseroth, M.D., Ph.D., a clinical psychiatrist and professor of bioengineering and of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford University. We discuss his experiences as a clinician treating complex psychiatric conditions and his lab’s pioneering work in developing transformative therapies for mental illness. He explains the complexities of mental illness and how emerging technologies—such as optogenetics and brain-machine interfaces—could revolutionize care. We also explore promising new therapies, including psychedelics and MDMA, for conditions like depression and PTSD. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Huberman Lab Essentials are short episodes focused on essential science and protocol takeaways from past full-length Huberman Lab episodes. Watch or listen to the full-length episode at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman David: https://davidprotein.com/huberman Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Karl Deisseroth; Neurology vs Psychiatry 00:01:36 Speech; Blood Test?; Seeking Help 00:04:20 Feelings, Jargon; Psychiatric Treatment 00:09:40 Sponsor: David 00:10:55 Future Treatment; Vagus Nerve Stimulation, Depression, Optogenetics 00:19:40 Brain-Machine Interfaces 00:20:53 Sponsor: Eight Sleep 00:23:00 ADHD Symptoms, Lifestyle, Technology 00:29:34 Psychedelics, Depression Treatment, Risks 00:35:43 Sponsor: AG1 00:37:30 MDMA (Ecstasy), Trauma & Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) Treatment 00:40:33 Projections: A Story of Human Emotions Book, Optimism Disclaimer & Disclosures Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Full Episode
Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, where we revisit past episodes for the most potent and actionable science-based tools for mental health, physical health, and performance. And now, my conversation with Dr. Karl Deisseroth. Well, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.
So for people that might not be so familiar with the fields of neuroscience, et cetera, what is the difference between neurology and psychiatry?
Psychiatry focuses on disorders where we can't see something that's physically wrong, where we don't have a measurable, where there's no blood test that makes the diagnosis. There's no brain scan that tells us this is schizophrenia, this is depression for an individual patient. And so psychiatry is much more mysterious. And the only tools we have are words. Neurologists are fantastic physicians.
They see the stroke on brain scans. They see the seizure and the pre-seizure activity with an EEG. And they can measure and treat based on those measurables. In psychiatry, we have a harder job. We use words. We have rating scales for symptoms. We can measure depression and autism with rating scales, but those are words still. And ultimately, that's what psychiatry is built around.
It's an odd situation because we've got the most complex, beautiful, mysterious, incredibly engineered object in the universe, and yet all we have are words to find our way in.
So do you find that if a patient is very verbal or hyperverbal, that you have an easier time diagnosing them as opposed to somebody who's more quiet and reserved, or it's, I can imagine the opposite might be true as well.
Well, because we only have words, you've put your finger on a key point. If they don't speak that much in principle, it's harder. The lack of speech can be a symptom. We can see that in depression. We can see that in the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. We can see that in autism. Sometimes by itself, that is a symptom of reduced speech. But ultimately, you do need something.
You need some words to help guide you. And that, in fact, there's challenges that I can tell you about where patients with depression who are so depressed they can't speak, That makes it a bit of a challenge to distinguish depression from some of the other reasons they might not be speaking. And this is sort of the art and the science of psychiatry.
Do you think we will ever have a blood test for depression or schizophrenia or autism? And would that be a good or a bad thing?
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