My guest is Ryan Soave, LMHC, a leading expert in addiction recovery with extensive experience helping people heal from all types of substance and behavioral dependencies. We discuss actionable tools for breaking out of the addictive cycle and staying free of obsessions and compulsions. We also examine the relationship between trauma and addiction. We explore the full recovery process—from detoxing and physical stabilization to building distress tolerance. We review evidence-supported tools to structure your life at each stage of recovery and highlight the power of learning “self-directed state shifting” through yoga nidra (NSDR), breathwork, meditation and prayer. We explain how to recognize signs of addiction in yourself and others, and the treatment options available across all levels of resources, from residential programs to 12-step. If you or someone you know is struggling with any kind of addiction, this episode offers practical steps to break free and stay free. Read the episode show notes at hubermanlab.com. Thank you to our sponsors AG1: https://drinkag1.com/huberman BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman Levels: https://levelshealth.com/huberman LMNT: https://drinklmnt.com/huberman Function: https://functionhealth.com/huberman Waking Up: https://wakingup.com/huberman Timestamps 00:00:00 Ryan Soave 00:01:32 Addiction, Addictive Behaviors, Relief 00:06:10 Rehab, Detox, Physical & Emotional Stability 00:13:33 Sponsors: BetterHelp & Levels 00:16:08 Recognizing Addition; Video Games, Parents & Responsibility 00:23:38 Experiencing Real Life vs Addictive Behavior; Dopamine Dynamics 00:29:38 Drugs & Feelings; Reordering Your Life; Roles, Kids vs Parents 00:40:03 Sponsors: AG1 & LMNT 00:43:13 Tool: 30 Days Abstinence & Addiction; Impact 00:46:10 Creating a Life Post-Addiction, Jellinek Curve 00:55:30 Tool: Emotional Weather Forecast, Gratitude, Plan, Strivings 01:02:48 Connection with Others, Mental Willpower Throughout Day, Defining Best Self 01:08:39 Emotional Weather Map, Navigating Life 01:10:16 Sponsor: Function 01:12:03 Tolerating Stress, Sailing Analogy, Discomfort 01:16:03 Building Distress Tolerance, Proactive Behaviors, Cold Plunge 01:23:55 Stilling Leads to Seeing, Tool: Recognizing Stress Response; Relationships 01:30:56 Yoga Nidra, Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NDSR) 01:38:54 Yoga Nidra & Authenticity, Breaking Patterns 01:45:45 Yoga Nidra Timing, Regulation of Autonomic Nervous System; Breathwork 01:52:53 Sponsor: Waking Up 01:54:28 Alcoholism, Social Acceptability, Community, AA, Powerlessness 02:02:23 Gambling, Kids & Susceptibility 02:08:58 Transmuting Energy, Running, Dopamine, Feelings 02:15:41 Cocaine, Amphetamine, Stimulant Addiction 02:18:21 Overcoming Porn Addiction, Shame 02:30:03 Struggle, “Discomfort Appetite” 02:36:09 Addiction Treatment, Detox, Rehab Centers, 12-Step Meetings, AA 02:46:54 Is Addiction the Problem?, Trauma, Stress & Addiction Cycle 02:49:05 GLP-1 Agonists & Addiction Treatment?, HALT; Addicted to Stress? 02:52:44 Sugar Addiction, Caffeine; Ibogaine, Psylocibin & Considerations 02:59:56 Helping Someone With Addiction 03:04:58 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures
Chapter 1: Who is Ryan Soave and what expertise does he bring to addiction recovery?
Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Ryan Suave. Ryan Suave is a renowned expert in addiction treatment and trauma recovery.
Ryan has spent decades on the front lines helping people overcome addictions to substances like alcohol and various drugs, as well as behavioral addictions, including gambling, video games and pornography. His approach combines evidence based protocols tailored to each person's unique family history and needs.
During today's episode, we explore all aspects of addiction, including the relationship between addiction and trauma. Ryan shares insights from his extensive clinical work and provides clear zero cost protocols for effective recovery that leverage neuroplasticity, which is your brain's ability to change with intention and experience.
We discuss and compare residential treatment programs, 12-step programs, self-guided addiction recovery, and more. If you or someone you know suffers from addiction, the information and tools offered in this episode ought to be of tremendous benefit to initiate and maintain sobriety from that behavior or substance.
Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Ryan Suave. Ryan Suave, welcome.
I'm glad to be here. Thank you for having me. You're the guy that people call, reach out to. cry to when everything comes crashing down. That's kind of your thing. Yeah. And you have this incredible gift really to orient people in time and space when that sort of thing is happening. And you do this for men, women, teens, kids, adults, families.
You've pretty much seen it all, although I'm sure there's more to come. I would love for you to just explain to people listening what addiction is and how you see it show up in people's lives. I know that you tend to get things like a trauma surgeon would see the human body hemorrhaging and in need of great support. But how do you think about addiction?
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Chapter 2: How does Ryan Soave define addiction and its relationship with trauma?
First, I'd like to make a little bit of a distinction. We're going to talk about addiction. When we look at the DSM, the diagnostic manual that we use for diagnosing psychological disorders, not really addiction as a diagnosis.
That's not super important necessarily because we can talk about it in the term of addiction, but we can look at people and look at biological, psychological, and social factors and make a diagnosis to see that they've got a substance use disorder, an alcohol use disorder, whether it's moderate or severe, or they're dependent on it. And
not to give people an out, but not all people that show up with an alcohol use disorder for a point in time are necessarily an addict. They may not be forever. It might been a life circumstance that kind of brought them there.
That said, someone that at a point in time in their life could have an alcohol use disorder or a substance use disorder, you know, they're probably prone to that and they probably shouldn't continue down that path or gamble with it. So, Talking about addiction in general, I like to broaden that definition to really, you know, question I'll ask people is, does it have you or do you have it?
Is it driving you and your behaviors? Are you really leaning on it in a way that that's your medicine? Because I don't really see addiction as the problem. You know, addiction is the solution. Whatever they're addicted to is the solution to some underlying stressor.
You know, I think as humans, we when we're when we're uncomfortable, when we're experiencing pain, our kind of immediate reaction is to get out of that. And when that stress becomes really big, we're going to look for the things that are going to impact us a lot quicker. You know, taking a drink, using a drug.
Now, once people start doing that, depending on what it is, you know, if it's heroin or fentanyl, they can become physically addicted to it very quickly or alcohol over time. But I think the definition can be expanded to a lot of other things, maybe even things that seem mundane.
And we can have addictive behaviors at different points in our life and maybe have the same behavior that sometimes is addictive and sometimes isn't. This is very mundane, but sometimes I'm binge-watching Netflix because I'm on a plane and don't have anything to do or I'm sick and I can't get out of bed.
And other times I might have a really stressful day or have something going on that I don't want to deal with. And I end up watching TV too late and then I don't sleep. And now is that a addiction that I need to get treatment for or be pulled away from my family for? Probably not.
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Chapter 3: What are the first steps in addiction treatment and medical detox?
But I think that's, that's at the core of it. You know, how can we build a distress tolerance so that they can face discomfort, they can face pain and not choose the thing that gives immediate short-term relief and that's going to end up hurting them and those around them to allow them to really lean in to whatever that discomfort is.
And when people are able to be available for the depths of discomfort, then they're really become more available for the heights of joy and satisfaction in life. So we start to build that capacity so that then we can start looking at the beliefs that maybe, the limiting type beliefs that have been driving them that are often set from earlier on in their life and the way that they were shaped.
And that's often what we talk about as trauma, not always a big event that happened on a single day, although that does occur. But the shapings that people had in their life that were adaptive. People are very adaptive. And kids, and as they're in their formative years, develop strategies to live life that adapt them in a way that they can survive the environments that they're in.
And if that adaptation, which was appropriate in their family, their school, their environment, whatever it was, maybe all of those was something that was more toward like a survival response, like a fight or flight type response, And now that's never resolved in some way, in a way.
And then later in life, they're still applying these adaptive strategies in situations that it's not appropriate for.
I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, BetterHelp. BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out entirely online. Now, I personally have been doing therapy weekly for well over 30 years. Initially, I didn't have a choice.
It was a condition of being allowed to stay in school, but pretty soon I realized that therapy is an extremely important component to one's overall health. In fact, I consider doing regular therapy just as important as getting regular exercise, which of course I also do every week. There are essentially three things that great therapy provides.
First of all, it provides a good rapport with somebody that you can trust and talk to about pretty much any issue with. Second of all, it can provide support in the form of emotional support and directed guidance.
And third, expert therapy can provide useful insights, insights that allow you to better not just your emotional life and your relationship life, but of course, also the relationship to yourself and your professional life and to all sorts of goals.
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Chapter 4: How can one recognize signs of addiction in behaviors like video gaming and social media use?
I mean, could we test ourselves as individuals? Like, can I go an afternoon without it? Can I go a week without it? Is that the test?
I think that's a great test. I mean, probably more than an afternoon or a week, but can I quit for a month? And if you're If when you're when you've stopped, if all you're thinking about is either doing it or when you're doing it, all you're thinking about is how can I how can I stop doing this?
That's a pretty good indication that it has you, you know, and, you know, you also have to look at, like, what are the things that it's impacting in your in your life? And that's one of the things we can help people kind of orient to. And they might think that if it's somebody that comes to us at their family saying this is a huge problem, they may not see it yet. Or they may be avoiding it.
We call that denial. But a lot of times there's something deep down where they know that, you know, I'm really disengaged from life. I'm lonely. I don't have the quality of relationships. I'm not able to be motivated to do the things that I want to do.
What if it still feels good to them, however? Like family isn't saying, look, you know, kid isn't getting their schoolwork done. But it's kind of outrageous, you know, four hours a day playing video games. three hours a day. That might not even seem like that much to a lot of people, but parents can see the opportunity cost of that. This is time that kid isn't,
running around and getting exercise. This is time that is eating into sleep. This is time that could be spent studying. So maybe grades haven't cratered yet. And we live in the quote unquote American dream model where kids say, well, so-and-so makes millions of dollars every year playing video games. So I'm actually on the path. I think you see that fairly often these days, right?
I'll relate it back to drugs for a second. You and I are the same age and you probably remember the, you know, this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs when they cracked the, you know, showed the egg, this is your brain.
Disrespectful to eggs, which I'm a big fan of.
And then this is your brain on, well, it did call the egg a brain. So that was pretty good. Oh, that's true. Your logic is impeccable. Thank you. And this is your brain on drugs and it showed the fried egg. I think that was a terrible example for kids because Most of the time when people do drugs the first time, it doesn't feel like that. It feels good. It feels great.
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Chapter 5: What is the role of distress tolerance in addiction recovery?
And to be able to – a lot of people, even the first time they'll do it – and it's not always like that for everybody, right? Some people just are using it socially and then later on when there are stressors, realize that I can use this to medicate as well. But the ones that are having the relationship that you just described is – They didn't even know.
They had no idea that life or their emotional state or their physiological state could be different than it was.
So how do you persuade somebody that it's a good idea to take that away from themselves? Because I imagine some of the first thoughts that go through their mind include – I can't imagine life without that feeling.
You know, St. Augustine said, and I'm not going to get it exactly right, but he said something like, you know, well living depends on reordering your loves. And he was talking about people living with a disordered life. And the question it begged is, what are you loving the most? And his argument, I think, was whatever you're loving the most becomes your God, your higher power.
You know, if I'm loving money the most, if that's the most important thing to me, then money is my higher power. The thing is money will fail me, right? Like you just talked about, like the guy could get a billion dollars and want to kill himself, right?
Or if I put my relationship at the, you know, if I said, you know, the most important thing to me is that my wife is happy, you know, and that's my most important thing. that sounds great, but she's not going to be happy all the time. And when she is, I'm going to feel great. And when she's not, I'm going to feel like I'm doing something wrong. You know, are we making sex the most important thing?
Are we making, you know, and his argument was love God first and then do as you do as you will, like find the highest power because these powers don't, that we're putting up there, like money, sex, food, all things that aren't problematic. We need them. They only become problematic when they're problematic, right? When they're, when we're making them that thing that's going to solve our problems.
What about kids?
I know a number of people who are excellent parents who are super devoted to their kids. And they say, like, my kids are my life. My kids are everything. That might just be language, right? They could also have a relationship to a higher power. But do you see people suffering by virtue of overemphasizing things? their kids or their, you mentioned spouse, but as a priority in their life?
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Chapter 6: How can daily emotional weather forecasting help in managing addiction and stress?
I'm not speaking for myself because I'm not a drinker, but like, I like a drink at the end of the day. It helps me relax, makes me a better parent, makes me a better spouse. And I like it. Is it my spiritual higher power? No, but I like it. Would I take 30 days off? Prefer not to, but I'm not addicted.
You know, but then you think, okay, well, a kid that likes playing video games, it lets him connect with his friends. He's doing it a bit excessively, but is he addicted? You know, okay. Obviously, if it's harming people's profession, it's harming their relationships in very overt ways, then we place into the category of addiction.
But there's this thing that happens in these conversations around addiction where people start to go, okay, it sounds like I can't really enjoy anything that much because then it takes over everything. Like, I'll come clean. I've worked anywhere from 10 to 16 hours a day, five to six days a week on average since I was 19. Am I a work addict?
Maybe, but I love my work and it's done wonderful things for my life and I have a life that I wouldn't trade for anything. Did I miss out on a lot of things? Probably. But I also love the life I've lived and that I continue to live. And a lot of that comes from the relationships and experiences I've had through work. Right. So at some point, this is where diagnostic criteria become handy.
But I do like the fact that we have a litmus test now. Could you take 30 days away from it and not completely lose your mind? Or could you just take 30 days away from it? If I didn't work for 30 days, that would be very difficult for me. But I could do it. Um, so how should we frame this, this thing of addiction and so that people can ask themselves, like, do I have it or does it have me?
I mean, I think, how are you using it and what is it impacting if, if anything, but to be, be able to be honest with yourself about it, you know, it's very hard to be, it's, it's easy to say, be honest with yourself about it, but it's very hard to be honest with ourselves. You know, that's where being in relationship with others, sharing what you're experiencing. If you're taking 30 days off,
really communicating to somebody else, whether it's a therapist or a trusted friend, you know, how am I thinking about this? You know, am I waking up every day wishing I could be doing this other than some, am I sitting in a business meeting completely dissociated from what's going on because I'm really focused on that I'm not gambling or that I'm not drinking?
You know, you've got to be able to look at what it's impacting in the way that we're thinking and the way that we're feeling.
Can I ask you a question about how it's impacting things? Because one thing I've observed in myself and in others is that sometimes behaviors that if we were to just look at through a kind of tunnel vision, you'd say, wow, like this person just like works a lot or this person exercises a lot. But it provides energy that feeds a bigger ecosystem. You know, it gives me a sense of purpose.
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Chapter 7: What proactive tools can increase distress tolerance, including cold plunges and Yoga Nidra?
sometimes they change. And it's something that's a liability in this situation might be an asset in this situation, right? Like if uncontrolled anger and violence in my home when my kids do something wrong, and I'm not doing this, but it is a liability. If my family's attacked, it's an asset, right? So understanding what these defects and virtue or assets and liabilities are so that I really
know myself. And that can be through a process of sharing with others. And in 12 Step, that's how they do it. We do it in therapy all of the time to kind of know who I am. You know, actually, there's a line in one of the AA literature that Bill Wilson wrote, and he gives a definition of humility.
And it goes something like this, that humility is an honest recognition of who and what we've become, followed by a deep desire to become who we can be. And it's not about like that I'm all bad. It's just to note it, to, to, to recognize who I am. If I don't know where I'm starting, I can't know just like finding directions.
If I asked, you know, to get directions to the studio and your team started giving me directions from over the Canyon, but I was, you know, South of here, they're going to give me the directions to turn left on this road and right on this. And I'm going to, I'm not going to know how to get there. I'm not, I'm going to be disoriented. I'm going to feel lost.
It starts with really knowing where I am, who and what I am. And from there, then we can start to build a life. So one of the things I give people a lot is once they kind of understand these assets and liabilities of theirs, to look at each day ahead and say, first we start off with gratitude. You know, it kind of gives a mindset. And gratitude just isn't about being thankful for things.
I really believe gratitude is meeting what is as it is. You know, that I always, when I give people this and when I practice it myself, I try at least to be one of the things I'm grateful for to be something that I'm challenged by. And not just to say, I'm going to learn a lesson from this, but I might not know what that is, but to really express gratitude for some challenge I'm having.
So that's kind of a mindset. And then the next thing is just laying out your plans for the day and not like a detailed calendar, but like, you know, I'm going to wait, you know, take the kids to school, go to work, travel, you know, have a business dinner tonight. Right. And then, so I kind of know what's happening that day.
And then from there, look at what are my, what's my emotional state currently? What am I experiencing now? Especially if it's like fears, resentments, anger, guilt, shame, it could be something else. It could just be like, I'm feeling I feel really solid today.
But when I can take what's going to happen today and what I'm already experiencing, I can look at what I'm doing today and think, you know, there are some character liabilities or defects that might come up. Like if I have to travel today and I've got to take three flights instead of one, I can know that if I know myself, I might say I could have the ability to become impatient, controlling.
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Chapter 8: How does Yoga Nidra (non-sleep deep rest) support trauma and addiction recovery?
I think we're so vulnerable in the middle of the night. Our forebrain shut down. We can't strategize. All our safety mechanisms are, are, or at their lowest. And those thoughts just, they don't hold meaning. Now, that's not to say that some night owls might not have some brilliant insights in the middle of the night. So this just relates to me and my schedule.
But I do think that we can make a decision to behave one way and do things at 8 a.m., And by 4 p.m., as a neuroscientist, I can honestly say that your brain is not the same brain at 4 p.m. that it was at 8 a.m. It's still you, but it's functioning so differently. What's important, how it orders priorities, how it interprets data. It's not like a computer. It's a dynamic machine.
And at different times of day, you're working with a different set of hardware. Literally, certain circuits are more active than others. So I don't believe that we are capable of self-regulating nearly as well as we could, certainly not perfectly, if we don't have a reminder of our best self, our aspirational self that we carry forward.
Whether or not it comes through other people or enforcement or ideally it comes from inside us, but the expectation that we are going to spontaneously and impulsively be our best self is one of the biggest failures, I think, of education and psychology and medicine and evidenced by the fact that I have many colleagues who are scientists and physicians who have terrible addictions.
Some are sober, some are not. These are brilliant people who have all the knowledge in the world about the inner workings of the mechanisms that make people addicted, et cetera. Anyway, I just – I'm editorializing there a bit. But I feel very passionate about these zero-cost tools. But I have to say these tools can make a huge difference. And – What do you call this list? What is it?
The plan for the day?
What is this list? Just like an emotional weather forecast. I mean, call it whatever you want. But I think it can be part of a daily inventory too, where at night you could look at and see how you did. I mean, I think you just talked about being your best self. It's a way to kind of define what our best self is that day.
Because what our best self is is going to change depending on the circumstances we're in. I've run into problems before in my own life where
you know, it's like the weekend and I'm really looking forward and like the weekend's going to be, and I don't, let's say I don't do this actually, cause it's a, it's a Saturday and I, it's going to be, you know, I'm home and it's going to be an amazing, I live with four other people, you know, two of three of which are children.
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