Ink in Your Veins

Ep. 160: How Do You Use Tarot as Tool for Writing Even if You’re Non-Woo-woo? Bonus episode!

27 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael talks about how she uses her tarot decks to uncover her own subconscious knowledge, and how you can, too Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privac...

Ep. 159: Steff Green on Writing Prolifically and Joyfully

20 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Steff Green is a USA Today bestselling author of the paranormal, gothic, dark, and fantastical. Steff received the 2017 Attitude Award for A...

Ep. 158: Should You Plan to Self-Publish AND Seek Agent Representation? And Are Retreats for Introverts? Bonus Episode

19 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Ep. 158: Should You Plan to Self-Publish AND Seek Agent Representation? And Are Retreats for Introverts? Bonus Episode Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/...

Ep. 157: Daniel Willcocks on Writing Fast and Getting into Flow

13 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Daniel Willcocks is an international bestselling author and podcaster of dark fiction. He is one quarter of digital story studio, Hawk & Cleaver, ...

Ep. 156: Jeremy Spillman on Taking Nashville Songwriting to a Novel

06 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Kentucky born and bred, Jeremy Spillman moved to Nashville, Tennessee to pursue his dream of success as a songwriter at 24. It would be five years bef...

Ep. 155: Blog vs. Memoir and Couch to 5k for Writing - Bonus Episode

05 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Ep. 155: Blog vs. Memoir and Couch to 5k for Writing - Bonus EpisodeHow do you decide if writing a blog is for you if you're writing memoir? Are blogs...

Ep. 154: How Do You Keep Writing When No One is Reading You Yet? Bonus Mini-Episode

28 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

How Do You Keep Writing When No One is Reading You Yet? Bonus Mini-EpisodeYeah, writing alone while you're unpublished is so difficult. How do you kee...

Ep. 153: Marianne Power on Writing Truth and Shame in Memoir

22 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Marianne Power is a writer and journalist who lives in London. Her first book, Help Me: How self-help did NOT change my life,, is about a year long qu...

Ep. 152: NaNoWriMo Crash - Bonus Episode

20 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

What if your NaNoWriMo novel (or any of your writing) is crashing? Does it mean you should give up writing and get a job in finance? Or move to Antarc...

Ep. 150: Shamim Sarif on Marrying Characters to Plot, Organically

15 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

As an award-winning novelist, screenwriter, and film director, Shamim Sarif has built a career on creating powerful female protagonists—and in doing...

Ep. 151: Rachael on How to Start Sentences, How to Word Sprint, and Taking on Draft Passes (Mini-Episode)

15 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

How Do You Write BONUS EPISODE: This mini-episode brought to you by $5 and up Patreons. You too can use me as a writing coach on retainer - join here!...

Ep. 149: Adrienne Bell on Writing Hella Words in 2020

08 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Adrienne Bell is the author of over a dozen action-packed romantic comedies. Her love of story structure led her to create Plot MD, a system for ...

Ep. 148: Rachael on Making Changes

02 Nov 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael goes on vacation and talks about some big, new decisions. She's stopping an income stream, and trying some others. Listen in! Hosted on Acast...

Ep. 147: Amy Rigby on Memoir Writing, Songwriting, and Tending Bar

11 Oct 2019

Contributed by Lukas

AMY RIGBY is a songwriter, musician and performer. Her most recent album The Old Guys was voted one of the top 100 albums of 2018 in the Pazz & Jo...

Ep. 146: Jennifer Loudon on Writing and Your Emotional Immune System

04 Oct 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Jennifer Louden is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self-care with her first best-selling book The Woman’s Comfort Book. S...

Ep. 145: J.L. Brown on Finding Your Own Voice as a Writer

27 Sep 2019

Contributed by Lukas

J. L. Brown is the author of the Jade Harrington novels, Don’t Speak, Rule of Law, and The Divide, and the short story, Few Are Chosen. She lives wi...

Ep. 144: Katie Forrest on Character Quirks

20 Sep 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Katie Forrest is an indie author who writes fiction under two pen names and writes on time management for authors, and more, at www.katieforrest.com&n...

Ep. 143: Abdi Nazemian on Being in a TV Writers' Room

13 Sep 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Abdi Nazemian is the author of Like a Love Story and The Authentics. His novel, The Walk-In Closet, won the Lambda Literary Award for LGBT Debut Ficti...

Ep. 142: Lamar Giles and His Brilliant Dialogue Craft Tip

06 Sep 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Lamar Giles writes novels and short stories for teens and adults. He is the author of the Edgar Award nominees Fake ID and Endange...

Ep. 141: Samantha Downing on 10 Years to Overnight Success

30 Aug 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Samantha Downing is the author of the USA Today and #1 International Best Seller, My Lovely Wife. She was born and raised in Marin...

Ep. 140: Mindy McGinnis on Creating a Snow Globe of Writing Efficiency

23 Aug 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Mindy McGinnis is an Edgar Award-winning novelist who writes across multiple genres, including post-apocalyptic, historical, thriller, contemporary, m...

Ep. 139: Alexandra Villasante on Staying Connected to Your Characters

02 Aug 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Alexandra Villasante has always loved telling stories—though not always with words. She has a BFA in Painting and an MA in Combined Media (that’s ...

Ep. 138: Hannah Shaw on Writing Your Passion (and Kittens!)

26 Jul 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Hannah Shaw is an award-winning kitten rescuer, humane educator, and unwavering animal advocate who has dedicated her life to protecting the tiniest a...

Ep. 137: M.G. Hennessey on When Not to Revise

19 Jul 2019

Contributed by Lukas

M.G. Hennessey loves Star Wars, the San Francisco Giants, strawberry ice cream, and dancing. She mentors teens at the Lifeworks program/LA LGBT Center...

Ep. 136: Aileen Erin on The Second Act

28 Jun 2019

Contributed by Lukas

USA Today Bestselling author Aileen Erin is half-Irish, half-Mexican, and 100% nerd—from Star Wars (prequels don’t count) to Star Trek (TNG FTW), ...

Ep. 135: Aime McNee on the Joy of Writing Community

21 Jun 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Amie McNee is a writer, speaker and a mentor who writes 16th century historical fiction. Using her medieval degree, which specialised in sex culture, ...

Ep. 134: Ella Barnard on Connecting With Readers

07 Jun 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Ella Barnard works with writers who are ready to become authors. She is the host of the Author Like a Boss podcast and owners of the Author Boss Acade...

Ep. 133: Jill Hedgecock on Using a Muse Board

31 May 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Jill Hedgecock is an award-winning and internationally-published author. She writes book review columns for both Books ‘N Pieces Magazine&...

Ep. 132: Julie Schooler on Finding Your Writing Sparkle

24 May 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Julie Schooler is an author of 7 books and mama of 2 beautiful tiny humans. Her Easy Peasy books provide simple and straightforward information on par...

Ep. 131: Rachael on How to Write Your Book in 90 Days!

17 May 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael Herron is a huge believer in writing fast so that you get a product that you can revise into the book of your heart. In this episode, she goes...

Ep. 130: Barbara Poelle on What an Agent Looks For

10 May 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Barbara Poelle began her publishing career as a freelance copywriter and editor before joining the Goodman Agency in 2007, but feels as if she truly p...

Ep. 129: Nancy Warren

03 May 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Nancy Warren is the USA Today Bestselling author of more than seventy novels in romance and cozy mystery. Her current series is called The Vampire Kni...

Ep. 128: Beth Barany on the Importance of Play in Writing

05 Apr 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Beth Barany is an award-winning novelist, master neuro-linguistic programming practitioner, and certified creativity coach for writers. She specialize...

Ep. 127: W.L. Hawkin on the Magic of Writing

29 Mar 2019

Contributed by Lukas

W. L. Hawkin writes “edgy urban fantasy with a twist of murder.” Her Hollystone Mysteries series features a coven of Vancouver witches who solve m...

Ep. 126: Hank Phillipi Ryan on How to Keep Pacing Tight

22 Mar 2019

Contributed by Lukas

HANK PHILLIPPI RYAN is on-air investigative reporter for Boston's WHDH-TV, winning 34 EMMYs and dozens more journalism honors. The nationally bestsell...

Ep. 125: Valerie Francis on Genre Conventions

15 Mar 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Valerie Francis is an author and Certified Story Grid Editor. She has published fiction for both women (love stories for busy women) and children (mid...

Ep. 124: Lara Zielin on How To Write A Better Story for Your Life

08 Mar 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Are you ready to write a better story for yourself? Author Your Life is the oh-heck-yeah transformation that can happen when you literally put pen to ...

Ep. 123: Tricia Bruce on Not Shying Away from the Hard Stuff

01 Mar 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Tricia Bruce, Ph.D. is an accomplished sociologist of religion and award-winning author. Her work intersects the sociological and cultural implication...

Ep. 122: Katrin Schumann on Finding the Moment of Bliss in Writing

22 Feb 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Katrin Schumann is the author of the novel, The Forgotten Hours, and numerous nonfiction books. She has been awarded fiction residencies from the Verm...

Ep. 121: Dharma Kelleher on the Pain and Pleasure of Process

15 Feb 2019

Contributed by Lukas

As one of the few transgender authors in crime fiction, Dharma Kelleher writes gritty novels with a progressive bent, including the Jinx Ballou bounty...

Ep. 120: Carter Wilson on Upping the Pace

08 Feb 2019

Contributed by Lukas

USA Today and #1 Denver Post bestselling author Carter Wilson has written five critically acclaimed, standalone psychological thrillers, as well as...

Ep. 119: Win Charles is Delightful

01 Feb 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Born with Cerebral Palsy, Win Charles has defied the odds by becoming an author. Her memoir I, Win is an amazing story of how she remembers her life t...

Ep. 118: Eve O. Schaub on Finding the Time To Write the Truth

18 Jan 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Serial memoirist Eve O. Schaub lives with her family in Vermont and enjoys performing experiments on them so she can write about it. During 2011 Eve w...

Ep. 117: Barbara Samuel on Finding and Keeping Inspiration

11 Jan 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Barbara Samuel (also known as Barbara O’Neal) is the bestselling author of more than 40 books. In 2012, she was inducted into the Romance Writers of...

Ep. 116: Rachael’s 2018 Recap (The Money Episode)

07 Jan 2019

Contributed by Lukas

As is her annual tradition, Rachael breaks down the money she made and how she made it. 2018 was her best year yet as a self-employed writer for more ...

Ep. 115: Jim Heskett on Juggling the Writer’s Life

28 Dec 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Jim Heskett was born in the wilds of Oklahoma, raised by a pack of wolves with a station wagon and a membership card to the local public swimming pool...

Ep. 114: Rachael reads Alexis Bonogofsky

21 Dec 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Alexis Bonogofsky is a fourth-generation Montanan, community organizer, goat and sheep rancher, and freelance writer and photographer, who lives and w...

Ep. 113: Rachael on Facebook Live

14 Dec 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael answers questions about the writing life, including a really hard one - what can you do when a significant other breaks your writing heart?&nb...

Ep. 112: Tasha L. Harrison on Keeping a Writing Journal

07 Dec 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Tasha L. Harrison is a romance and erotica author, freelance editor, and creative entrepreneur who is dedicated to helping new and aspiring word maker...

Ep. 111: Kristen Lepionka

30 Nov 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Kristen Lepionka is the Shamus Award-winning author of the Roxane Weary mystery series. She grew up mostly in a public library and could often be foun...

Ep. 110: Marion Roach Smith

24 Nov 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Marion Roach Smith is the author of four mass-market books. A former staffer at The New York Times, she has been a commentator on NPR’s All Things C...

Ep. 109: Sophie Littlefield, Finally!

16 Nov 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Called a “writing machine” by the New York Times and a “master storyteller” by the Midwest Book Review, Sophie Littlefield has written dozens ...

Ep. 108: Rachael on Revision

09 Nov 2018

Contributed by Lukas

In this week’s episode, Rachael talks about revision in the form of a free chapter from her book, Fast-Draft Your Memoir. Learn all her tips and tri...

Ep. 107: Carly Gelsinger

01 Nov 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Carly Gelsinger lives in the Bay Area with her husband and two (soon to be three!) daughters. She teaches memoir and loves helping people tell their s...

Ep. 106: Alanna Okun

19 Oct 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Alanna Okun is a senior editor at Vox.com and the author of The Curse of the Boyfriend Sweater, an essay collection about crafting available now from ...

Ep. 105: Jessica Strawser

12 Oct 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Jessica Strawser is editor-at-large at Writer’s Digest, where she was editorial director for nearly a decade. She’s the author of the book club fa...

Ep. 104: Kilby Blades on Getting it All Done

21 Sep 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Kilby Blades is a multi-award-winning author of smart, contemporary romantic fiction. A digital marketer by day, by night she writes dynamic character...

Ep. 103: Clare Lydon on the Freedom Found in the Writer’s Life

13 Sep 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Clare Lydon is a London-based writer of contemporary lesbian romance. She’s a No.1 best-seller on lesbian fiction charts around the globe, and if yo...

Ep. 102: Writing Q&A with Rachael

31 Aug 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael takes questions from listeners on all aspects of writing - when should you leave your day job? When should you hire an editor? Does having a b...

Ep. 101: Rachael Talks About a Little Bit of Everything

24 Aug 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Today, Rachael shares the latest personal news, as well as her first Facebook Live, in which readers and writers peppered her with questions about all...

Ep. 100: Orna Ross on Capturing and Keeping Inspiration

17 Aug 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Orna Ross is an award winning novelist, poet, creative facilitator and self-publishing advocate. She is Founder-Director of the Alliance of Independen...

Ep. 099: Laura Morelli on Writing Historical Fiction and How to Take Care of Yourself as a Writer

03 Aug 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Laura Morelli is a hybrid author of fiction and non-fiction. She holds a Ph.D. in art history from Yale University and has taught college students in ...

Ep. 098: Toby Neal is Completely Inspiring

28 Jul 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Toby Neal was born to hippie surfer parents and grew up on Kauai in Hawaii. She read at four; wrote and illustrated her first story at five. Holding d...

Ep. 097: Rose Lerner on the Rush of Being in the Flow of Writing

21 Jul 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rose Lerner discovered Georgette Heyer when she was thirteen, and wrote her first historical romance a few years later. Her writing has improved since...

Ep. 096: Kirsty Logan Talks About Doing What We Like

14 Jul 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Kirsty Logan is a fiction writer, book reviewer, freelance editor, and writing mentor for WoMentoring. She also volunteers at Oxfam Books. She’s had...

Ep. 095: Rachael’s Mid-Year Update

06 Jul 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael talks about how the first six months of 2018 have shaped-up, career-wise, and she discusses the most exciting things that have occurred. She h...

Ep. 094: Leesa Renee Hall on Writing Half a Million words in 365 Consecutive Days

29 Jun 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Leesa Renee Hall is an author, facilitator, social historian, and creative word artist. After writing half a million words over 365 consecutive days, ...

Ep. 093: Jeffrey Foucault on Writing a Lot of Sentences to Achieve Clarity

22 Jun 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Singer-songwriter Jeffrey Foucault talks about being simple and clear in your writing in order to find your own voice. Jeffrey Foucault is an Ame...

Ep. 92: Brenda Wilhelmson on Saying Yes

15 Jun 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Brenda Wilhelmson talks about saying yes and opening the door to opportunity when there's no good reason not to. Journalist-turned-memoirist Wilh...

Ep. 091: R.L. Merrill Talks Facing Conflict with Characters

15 Jun 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Once upon a time... A teacher, tattoo collector, mom, and rock 'n' roll kinda gal opened up a doc and starting purging her demons. Several self-publis...

Ep. 090: E.J. Russell on Shifting into the Right Brain

01 Jun 2018

Contributed by Lukas

E.J. Russell–-grace, mother of three, recovering actor–-writes romance in a rainbow of flavors. Count on high snark, low angst and happy endings. ...

Ep. 089: Emilia Zeeland Talks Character Building

25 May 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Emilia Zeeland talks about batch writing, how to brainstorm story when you're stuck, and character building on this episode. Emilia Zeeland is a Young...

Ep. 088: Nathan Van Coops on Finding the Writer's Hook

18 May 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Nathan Van Coops talks tacos, time travel, and finding his hook as a writer. Nathan Van Coops lives in St. Petersburg, Florida, on a diet comprised ma...

Ep. 087: Adrienne Bell, Plot MD

11 May 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Adrienne Bell, Plot MD, is the master of structure. Adrienne Bell is the author of over a dozen action-packed romances including the bestselling conte...

Ep. 086: Tessa Dare is Awesome

05 May 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Tessa Dare talks to Rachael about being her own stenographer. Tessa is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of fourteen historical...

Ep. 085: Rachael Herron Talks About Addiction

27 Apr 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Newly sober and happy about it, Rachael shares openly about what got her to stop drinking. This isn’t your normal writing podcast - instead, today’...

Ep. 084: Nikki Woolfolk

06 Apr 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Nikki Woolfolk is a Professional Chocolatier, Author and active member of Sister in Crime, Romance Writers of America and Mystery Writers of America. ...

Ep. 083: Priscilla Oliveras

30 Mar 2018

Contributed by Lukas

PRISCILLA OLIVERAS writes sweet contemporary romance with a Latinx flavor. Proud of her Puerto Rican-Mexican heritage, she strives to bring authentici...

Ep. 082: Nina MacLaughlin on Wood and Words

23 Mar 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Nina MacLaughlin grew up in Massachusetts. She earned a B.A. in English and Classical Studies from the University of Pennsylvania, then worked for abo...

Ep. 081: Morgan Daimler

17 Mar 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Morgan Daimler is the author of more than 2 dozen non-fiction and fiction books focusing on Irish Mythology and paganism, has been published in a vari...

Ep. 080: Jill Baguchinsky on Being Fearless

09 Mar 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Jill Baguchinsky remembers staring down the bones of prehistoric beasts during a trip to the American Museum of Natural History in New York City when ...

Ep. 079: RJ Theodore is Simply Delightful

02 Mar 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rekka, who writes as R J Theodore, is a multi-talented creative from New England. By day she is a graphic designer, and by the pre-dawn light she work...

Ep. 078: Robyn Kelly Talks About Being a Man in a Woman's World

23 Feb 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rob Kellet, writing as Robyn Kelly, talks to Rachael about imposter syndrom, the worst advice he ever got from Rachael, and about the joy of revision....

Ep. 077: Alex Courcier on the Future of Writing

16 Feb 2018

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, the tables are turned on Rachael as she gives an informational interview to Alex Courcier, an upcoming and inspiring 21-year-old writ...

Ep. 076: Rachael Herron talks about her new book, Fast-Draft Your Memoir

09 Feb 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rachael's new book, Fast-Draft Your Memoir: Write Your Life Story in 45 Hours is about writing quickly while still creating a compelling narrative arc...

Ep. 075: Joanna Penn talks about The Healthy Writer

02 Feb 2018

Contributed by Lukas

With her coauthor, Dr. Euan Lawson, Joanna Penn has just come out with a new book on living the writer’s life healthily - enjoy! Joanna Penn is a Ne...

Ep. 074: Alex Dolan on Crafting Characters

26 Jan 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Alex Dolan talks about the nature of media consumption and how it's reflected in today's prose. Alex Dolan is the author of THE EUTHANIST and THE EMPR...

Ep. 073: Fábio M. Barreto on Overcoming the Fear of Finding the Best Words

19 Jan 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Fábio M. Barreto talks about translation, writing in English, and how he sold the very first novel he ever wrote. Fábio M. Barreto is a fiction and ...

Ep. 072: Rachael on 2017 Achievements (and Failures) and 2018 Goals

05 Jan 2018

Contributed by Lukas

2017: The Ups and Downs In this episode, Rachael Herron goes over all her 2017 achievements and ALSO all her failures! She talks about money, what she...

Ep. 071: Zach Bohannon on Getting Out of the Writing Chair Occasionally

15 Dec 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Zach Bohannon talks about cowriting, the new Scrivener, launch plans and mailing lists. Zach is a horror, science fiction, and fantasy author. His bre...

Ep. 070: Liz Fenton on Authoring Books with Her Best Friend

08 Dec 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Liz Fenton talks about writing novels with her best friend and how to be careful about becoming too emotionally attached to your writing. Liz has writ...

Ep. 069: Jeff and Will on Sharing a Podcast and Writing and Life

01 Dec 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Jeff Adams and Will Knauss talk about not fearing your editor and various methods to deal with self-doubt and resistance. Jeff and Will are husbands, ...

Ep. 068: Antonia Murphy on Humor and Truth in Memoir

17 Nov 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Antonia Murphy talks about her memoir, Dirty Chick, and various gross things that happen on a farm that might kill you. Antonia is the founder and dir...

Ep. 067: Lorena Hughes On Trusting Yourself as a Writer

10 Nov 2017

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, Lorena Hughes talks about finding your own truth and determining what’s right for your writing by listening to yourself. Lorena was...

Ep. 066: Veronica Wolff on Remembering What You Love

03 Nov 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Bestselling author Veronica Wolff talks about finding your writing community, about treadmill desks, and about how to remember what you love about the...

Ep. 065: Michelle Spiva on How to Grab Your Reader Instantly

27 Oct 2017

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode, the amazing Michelle Spiva shares the 5 essential things she does to make sure her books are the ultimate page turners. Define, harne...

Ep. 064: Chloe Adler on Not Limiting Yourself in Your Writing

20 Oct 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Chloe Adler talks about changing tastes in writing (and avocados), keeping it fresh, and not limiting yourself in your writing. Chloe Adler lives in f...

Ep. 063: Ryan J. Pelton on Why Editing as You Go Can Be a Viable Option

12 Oct 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Ryan J. Pelton talks about revising as you go (at which Rachael gasps) and what it means to be a Hard Hat Creative. Ryan is a pastor, writer, and foun...

Ep. 062: Donika Kelly on How to Bring Physicality Into Your Work

06 Oct 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Donika Kelly is a delightful ball of energy who is more prone to stability when it comes to her writing than any cliched poet’s angst, and it’s lo...

Ep. 061: Olivia Dunn on What it Means to Do Two More Drafts

28 Sep 2017

Contributed by Lukas

Olivia Dunn talks to Rachael Herron about the best and worst writing advice she ever got (which turns out to the be the same thing, on writing two mor...