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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Ira Glass of This American Life. Do you know our show? Okay, well, either way, I'm going to tell you about it. We make stories that hopefully pull you into the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations, and then you just want to find out what is going to happen and cannot stop listening. That's right.
I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments. This American Life, wherever you get your podcasts. According to YouGov, one in five people admit to snooping through their partner's phones. And even more shockingly, 77% of people believe partners should have either access upon request or unlimited access to their partner's phones.
I think that's fair to say that being cheated on has always been a fear that people have in relationships. But do you think that distrust has increased? Yes. I really do. And I think it is related to the general use of surveillance technology in our lives. It becomes kind of this environment, like a weather system of distrust. Hello, hello.
I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Okay, so I know you both saw the quick rise and fall of the T app. For those who missed it, what was the app's original purpose? Basically alerting people to instances where their partners may be cheating out in the world.
Yeah, I would say it's kind of a more formalized version of different online groups that we've seen. You know, like, are we dating the same guy? Facebook groups. This is kind of like the next progression. Yes.
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Chapter 2: What is the fear of infidelity in modern relationships?
According to the T app website, the app was meant to quote, give women the tools they need to date safely in a world that often overlooks their protection. End quote. Kind of like a digital whisper network that warned users about men from ghosters to cheaters to abusers. I don't think it's just me who noticed that the fear of cheating and cheaters is looming larger than ever in our dating lives.
You don't get the popularity of the T app without it. We are obsessed with cheating and catching cheaters from Scandival to Try Guys to Coldplaygate. It feels like we can't go even a few months without a massive cheating scandal. It's like cheating never dies. And being cheated on definitely sucks.
I know from experience, but it also feels like it's hard to agree on what cheating is because definitions of cheating are really broad. Ultimately, what does it mean that cheating haunts our culture and our dating lives? Well, we're going to find out with Katherine Jayser-Morton, writer of the Brooding column from The Cut, and Shannon Keating, freelance culture journalist.
Katherine, Shannon, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Hi. Hi, Renee. Thanks. So off the jump, why does cheating mean different things to different people? And how has that definition broadened? Catherine, let's start with you. I think that the way that we define cheating is really linked to the way that we define love and romance.
And I think that those are very culturally determined ideas that have changed a lot over time. Oh, I haven't heard this before, that how we think of love has changed. Say more about that. So like something that I've been thinking about a lot is the influence of therapy talk and therapy culture on relationships and intimacy.
And there's so much good, I think, that comes from that because people, especially younger people, are learning how to communicate in ways that like I'm 42. And like when I think about when I was dating in my 20s, like... there wasn't really communication per se at all.
Now young people are learning like, you know, I have needs, I have expectations, I have boundaries, and here is how I express them. I feel like that's just like a good thing. But it also introduces this new way of thinking about romance, which is that if I'm going to have a partner, I'm going to express my needs to them, and now I expect them to meet my needs because I've been clear about them.
And so I think there is a way in which romance has been a little bit sapped out. Maybe not completely, but the kind of uncontrollable aspect of love and romance is somewhat like...
contained within this sense of like well you know this is what i expect from my partners if we think of love as a set of behaviors and expectations versus a set of feelings then it like brings in this other idea of what cheating is because it's instead of cheating as like someone being swept away by desire uh-huh maybe it's like they're doing a breach of contract.
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Chapter 3: How do apps and technology influence perceptions of cheating?
I must be able to apply a label to them that characterizes them as like fundamentally harmful. So yeah, like this person is an abuser. Yeah. And I don't feel comfortable equating cheating with abuse personally. But also, it's funny because I'm a little older. I've been married for 20 years.
And so, like, I feel like an old, like a wizened crone a little bit because it's like in 20 years you see a lot, you know. And labels and rules of these kinds, like rigidity really doesn't hold up anymore. in a long, long-term relationship. But I don't feel like in all cases, harm can be explained by abusive behavior. Conflict is not abuse. Yeah.
As Sarah Shulman said, yeah, that is something I have been thinking about. I think that cheating can be a part of a pattern of abuse and cheating and abuse can absolutely coexist. Agree. But making out with someone drunk at the club is not exactly the same as maybe like you're partner moving their way through seducing all of your friends and getting them to gaslight you about it.
Like, those are not the same thing to me. Yeah, it's like that Twitter meme, like, man, I think it depends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The lack of cheating, you know, a relationship where there hasn't been cheating, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's a great and healthy relationship. There could be so many different negative dynamics that are going on, that maybe a couple affairs...
weren't the worst thing that ever happened to you. You know, I mean, there's so many different ways that we as people can betray each other and let each other down. Coming up, do you think that distrust has increased? Yes. Part of it is related to people feeling that they have no sense of privacy of their own.
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You can also find the link in the description for this episode. This is Ira Glass of This American Life. Do you know our show? Okay, well, either way, I'm going to tell you about it. We make stories that hopefully pull you in at the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations, and then you just want to find out what is going to happen and cannot stop listening.
That's right. I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments. This American Life, wherever you get your podcasts. I also want to note that there's a lot of hypervigilance around cheating. I mean, I think that the T app is evidence. But according to YouGov, one in five people admit to snooping through their partner's phones.
And even more shockingly, 77% of people believe partners should have either access upon request or unlimited access to their partner's phones. I think that's fair to say that being cheated on has always been a fear that people have in relationships. But do you think that distrust has increased? Yes. I really do. And I think it is related to the general use of surveillance technology in our lives.
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Chapter 4: What are the different definitions of cheating people hold?
That is so interesting. One of the things that blew my mind as I was really solidifying my partnership with my now husband was realizing that the anxiety that I used to feel, because once you're cheated on once, it can be a thing to get over.
The anxiety that I felt about having my heart broken again or being cheated on again, once I realized that that wasn't really likely to happen at any point soon in my current relationship, I I suddenly became very preoccupied with like, he's going to die. I'm going to die. Which helped me to kind of see that like, I just had a lot of anxiety about being vulnerable and open with another person.
I wonder, what does it mean that the definition of cheating is both so murky now and also this specter that hovers over a lot of our dating lives? I mean, I think one quite negative effect of it being so hyper-present in dating culture, particularly I feel like straight dating culture, is that I wonder how much people are...
afraid to do so many things in or out of a relationship I mean if you think about how easy it is for someone to feel slighted and then go post about it online and find a group of people who will agree with you that this other person was in the wrong there's high stakes just going into a relationship when you don't necessarily just have the presumption of privacy or of being able to you know
Trust that you'll be able to work something out with your partner directly and figure it out and give each other grace for tough stuff because not everyone is going to do the right thing every moment, especially the longer you are in a relationship. My gosh. Well, Catherine, Shannon, I've learned so much here. Thank you both so much for this conversation. Thank you for having me.
Thanks for having us. This has been great. That was Catherine Jazer Morton, columnist for The Cut, and Shannon Keating, freelance culture reporter. So you all know I love hearing from you. And over the past few weeks, some of you have left the sweetest notes for me in the comments and reviews. One of y'all wrote, this podcast makes me smile, think, and feel grateful for all who make it possible.
Me too. Another wrote, this is my favorite podcast produced by NPR. Me too.
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Chapter 5: How has therapy culture changed our understanding of cheating?
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This episode of It's Been a Minute was produced by Liam McBain. This episode was edited by Nina Potok. Our supervising producer is Barton Girdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right. That's all for this episode of It's Been a Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon. This is Ira Glass of This American Life. Do you know our show?
Okay, well, either way, I'm going to tell you about it. We make stories that hopefully pull you in at the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations, and then you just want to find out what is going to happen and cannot stop listening. That's right. I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments. This American Life, wherever you get your podcasts.