Lex Fridman Podcast
#432 – Kevin Spacey: Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life
Wed, 05 Jun 2024
Kevin Spacey is a two-time Oscar-winning actor, who starred in Se7en, the Usual Suspects, American Beauty, and House of Cards, creating haunting performances of characters who often embody the dark side of human nature. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod to get 3 months free - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get $350 off - BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/kevin-spacey-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Kevin's X: https://x.com/KevinSpacey Kevin's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kevinspacey Kevin's YouTube: https://youtube.com/kevinspacey Kevin's Website: https://kevinspacey.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (10:14) - Seven (13:54) - David Fincher (21:46) - Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman (27:15) - Acting (35:40) - Improve (44:24) - Al Pacino (48:07) - Jack Lemmon (57:25) - American Beauty (1:17:34) - Mortality (1:20:22) - Allegations (1:38:19) - House of Cards (1:56:55) - Jack Nicholson (1:59:57) - Mike Nichols (2:05:30) - Christopher Walken (2:12:38) - Father (2:21:30) - Future
The following is a conversation with Kevin Spacey, a two-time Oscar-winning actor who has starred in Seven, The Usual Suspects, American Beauty, and House of Cards. He is one of the greatest actors ever, creating haunting performances of characters who often embody the dark side of human nature.
Seven years ago, he was cut from House of Cards and canceled by Hollywood and the World when Anthony Rapp made an allegation that Kevin Spacey sexually abused him in 1986. Anthony Rapp then filed a civil lawsuit seeking $40 million. In this trial, and all civil and criminal trials that followed, Kevin was acquitted. He has never been found guilty nor liable in a court of law.
In this conversation, Kevin makes clear what he did and what he didn't do. I also encourage you to listen to Kevin's Dan Wooten and Alison Pearson interviews for additional details and responses to the allegations. As an aside, let me say that one of the principles I operate under for this podcast and in life is that I will talk with everyone, with empathy and with backbone.
For each guest, I hope to explore their life's work, life's story, and what and how they think, and do so honestly and fully. The good, the bad, and the ugly. The brilliance and the flaws. I won't whitewash their sins, but I won't reduce them to a worse possible caricature of their sins either.
The latter is what the mass hysteria of internet mobs too often does, often rushing to a final judgment before the facts are in. I will try to do better than that, to respect due process in service of the truth. And I hope to have the courage to always think independently and to speak honestly from the heart. even when the eyes of the outrage mob are on me.
Again, my goal is to understand human beings at their best and at their worst. And the hope is such understanding leads to more compassion and wisdom in the world. I will make mistakes. And when I do, I will work hard to improve. I love you all. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast.
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To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Kevin Spacey. You played a serial killer in the movie Seven. Your performance was one of, if not the greatest portrayal of a murderer on screen ever. What was your process of becoming him, John Doe, the serial killer?
The truth is I didn't get the part. I had been in Los Angeles making a couple of films, Swimming with Sharks and Usual Suspects. And then I did a film called Outbreak that Morgan Freeman was in. And I went in to audition for David Fincher in probably late November of 94. and I auditioned for this part and didn't get it. And I went back to New York.
And I think they started shooting like December 12th, And I'm in New York, I'm back in my wonderful apartment on West 12th Street and my mom has come to visit for Christmas and it's December 23rd and it's like seven o'clock at night and my phone rings and it's Arnold Copelson who's the producer of Seven. And he's very jovial and he's very friendly and he says, how you doing? And I said, fine.
He said, listen, do you remember that film you came in for, Seven? I said, yeah, yeah, absolutely. He goes, well, turns out that we hired an actor and we started shooting. And then yesterday, David fired him. And David would like you to get on a plane on Sunday and come to Los Angeles and start shooting on Tuesday. And I was like, okay, fine. would it be imposing to say, can I read it again?
Because it's been a while now and I'd like to. So they sent a script over. I read the script that night. I thought about it. And I had this feeling, I can't even quite describe it, but I had this feeling that it would be really good if I didn't take billing in the film.
And the reason I felt that was because I knew that by the time this film would come out, it would be the last one of the three movies that I just shot, the fourth one. And if any of those films broke through or did well if it was going to be Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Gwyneth Paltrow, and Kevin Spacey. And you don't show up for the first 25, 30, 40 minutes.
People are going to figure out who you're playing.
So people should know that you are the serial, you play the serial killer in the movie and the serial killer shows up like more than halfway through the movie.
That's one.
And when you say billing, it's like the posters, the VHS cover, everything.
You're gone. You're not there. Not there. And so New Line Cinema told me to go fuck myself, that they absolutely could use my picture and my image. And this became a little bit of a, I'd say, 24-hour conversation And it was Fincher who said, I actually think this is a really cool idea. So the compromise was I'm the first credit at the end of the movie when the credits start.
So I got on a plane on that Sunday and I flew to Los Angeles and I went into where they were shooting and I went into the makeup room and David Fincher was there and we were talking about what should I do? How should I look? And I just had my hair short for Outbreak because I was playing a military character. And I just looked at the... and I said, do you have a razor?
And Fincher went, are you kidding?
And I said, no.
He goes, if you shave your head, I'll shave mine. So we both shaved our heads. And then I started shooting the next day. So my long-winded answer to your question is that I didn't have that much time to think about how to build that character. What I think in the end Fincher was able to do so brilliantly with such terror was to set the audience up to meet this character.
I think the last scene, the ending scene and the car ride leading up to it where it's mostly on you, in conversation with Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt, it's one of the greatest scenes in film history.
So if people somehow didn't see the movie, there's these five murders that happen that are inspired by five of the seven deadly sins, and the ending scene is inspired, represents the last two deadly sins. And there's this calm subtlety about you in your performance is just terrifying. Maybe in contrast with Brad Pitt's performance, that's also really strong.
But in the contrast is the terrifying sense that you get in the audience that builds up to the twist at the end, or the surprise at the end. with the famous what's in the box from Brad Pitt. That is Brad Pitt's character's wife, her head.
Yeah. I can really only tell you that while we were shooting that scene in the car, while we were out in the desert in that place where all those electrical wires were, David just kept saying less, do less. And I just tried to, I mean, I remember he kept saying to me, remember, you're in control. Like, you're going to win. And knowing that should allow you to have tremendous confidence.
And I just followed that lead. And I, I just think it's the kind of film that so many of the elements that had been at work from the beginning of the movie in terms of its style, in terms of how he built this terror, in terms of how he built for the audience, a sense of this person being one of the scariest people they might ever encounter.
It really allowed me to be able to not have to do that much, just say the words and mean them. And I think it also is an example of what makes tragedy so difficult. I mean, you know, very often tragedy is people operating without enough information. They don't have all the facts. Romeo and Juliet, they don't have all the facts. They don't know what we know as an audience.
And so in the end, whether Brad Pitt's character ends up shooting John Doe or turning the gun on himself, which was a discussion. I mean, there were a number of alternative endings that were discussed. Nothing ends up being tied up in a nice little bow. It is complicated and shows how nobody wins in the end when you're not operating with all the information.
When you say, say the words and mean them, what does mean them mean?
I've been very fortunate to be directed by Fincher a couple of times.
And he would say to me sometimes, I don't believe a thing that is coming out of your mouth.
Shall we try it again? And you go, okay, yeah, we can try it again. And sometimes he'll do take, and then you'll look to see if he has any added genius to hand you. And he just goes, let's do it again. And then let's do it again. And sometimes, I say this in all humility, he's literally trying to beat the acting out of you.
And by continually saying, do it again, do it again, do it again, and not giving you any specifics, he is systematically shredding you of all pretense of all, you know, because look, Very often, you know, actors, we come in on the set and we've thought about the scene and we've worked out, you know, I've got this prop and I'm going to do this thing with a can.
You know, all these things, all the tea, I'm going to do a thing with that thing. And David is the kind of director where he just wants you to stop adding all that crap and just say the words and say them quickly and mean them. And it takes a while. to get to that place. I'll tell you a story. This is a story I just love because it's in exactly the same wheelhouse.
So Jack Lemmon's first movie was a film called It Should Happen to You, and it was directed by George Cukor. And Jack tells this story, and it was just an incredibly charming story to hear Jack tell. He said, so I'm doing this picture. And let me tell you, this is a terrific part for me. And I'm doing a scene. It's on my first day. It's my first day and it's a terrific scene.
And he goes, we do the first take. And George Cukor comes up to me and he says, Jack, I said, yeah. He said, could you do, let's do another one, but just do a little less in this one. And Jack said, a little less, a little less than what I just did. He said, yeah, just a little less. So he goes, we do another take. And I think, boy, that was it. I mean, let's just go home.
And Cukor walked up to him and said, Jack, I'd like to do another one, this time just a little bit less. And Jack said, less than what I just did now? He said, yeah, just a little bit less. He goes, oh, okay. So they did another take. And Cukor came up and he said, Jack, just a little bit less. And Jack said, a little less than what I just did? He said, yes.
He goes, well, if I do any less, I'm not going to be acting. And Cukor said, exactly, Jack, exactly.
I mean, I guess what you're saying is it's extremely difficult to get to the bottom of a little less. Because the power, if we just stick even on seven, of your performance is in the tiniest of subtleties. Like when you say, oh, you didn't know. And you turn your head a little bit. And a little bit like the... the little bit, maybe a glimmer of a smile appears in your face. That's subtlety.
That's less. That's hard to get to, I suppose.
Yeah. And also because I so well remember I think the work that Brad did, and also Morgan did in that scene, but the work that Brad had to do, where he had to go. I remember rehearsing with him as we were all staying at this little hotel nearby that location, and we rehearsed the night before we started shooting that sequence.
And I just, I mean, it was just incredible to see the levels of emotions he had to go through. And then the decision of what do I do Because if I do what he wants me to do, then he wins. But if I don't do it, then I'm, what kind of a man, husband am I? I just thought he did really incredible work. So it was also... not easy to not react to the power of what he was throwing at me.
I just thought it was an extraordinary, a really extraordinary scene.
So what's it like being in that scene? So it's you, Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, and Brad Pitt is going over the top, just having a mental breakdown. and is weighing these extremely difficult moral choices, as you're saying. But he's like screaming in pain and tormented while you're very subtly smiling.
In terms of the writing and in terms of what the characters had to do, it was an incredible culmination of how this character could manipulate in the way that he did. And in the end,
You mentioned Fincher likes to do a lot of takes. That's the famous thing about David Fincher. So what are the pros and cons of that? I think I read that he does Some crazy amount. He averages 25 to 65 takes, and most directors do less than 10.
Sometimes it's timing. Sometimes it's literally he has a stopwatch, and he's timing how long a scene is taking. And then he'll say, you need to take a minute off this scene. Like a minute? Yeah, a minute off this scene. I want it to move like this. So let's pick it up. Let's pick up the pace. Let's see if we can take a minute off.
Why the speed? Why say it fast is the important thing for him, you think?
I think because Fincher hates indulgence. And he wants people to talk the way they do in life.
Which is, you know, we don't take Big dramatic pauses. Yeah, right. You know, before we speak. We speak. We say what we want. We, you know.
And I guess actors like the dramatic pauses and the indulge in the dramatic pauses.
They didn't always like the dramatic pauses. I mean, look, you go back, any student of acting, you go back to the 30s and the 40s, 50s. The speed at which actors spoke. Not just in the comedies, which, of course, you know, you look at any Preston Sturges movie and it's incredible how fast people are talking and how funny things are when they happen that fast.
But then, you know, acting styles changed. We got into a different kind of thing in the late 50s and 60s and – A lot of actors are feeling it, which is, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. It's just that if you want to keep an audience engaged as Fincher does, and I believe successfully does in all of his work,
pace timing movement clarity speed are admirable to achieve and all of that he wants the actor to be as natural as possible to strip away all the bullshit of acting yeah and become human Look, I've been lucky with other directors. Sam Mendes is similar.
I remember when I walked in to maybe the first rehearsal for Richard III that we were doing, I had brought with me a canopy of ailments that my Richard was going to suffer from. And Sam, you whittled it down to like three, like maybe your arm and maybe your leg. But let's get rid of the other 10 things that you brought into the room because I was so excited to capture this character.
So very often, Trevor Nunn is this way, a lot of wonderful directors I've worked with, they're really good at helping you trim and edit things.
David Fincher said about you, he was talking in general, I think, but also specifically in the moment of House of Cards, said that you have exceptional skill both as an actor and as a performer, which he says are different things. So he defines the former's dramatization of a text and the latter as the seduction of an audience. Do you see wisdom in that distinction?
And what does it take to do both, the dramatization of a text and the seduction of an audience?
Those are two very interesting descriptions. When I think, I guess when I think performer... I tend to think entertaining. I tend to think comedy. I tend to think winning over an audience. I tend to think that there's something about that quality of wanting to have people enjoy themselves. And when you saddle that against
what maybe he means as an actor, which is more dramatic or more text-driven, more... Look, I've always believed that my job, not every actor feels this way, but my job, the way that I've looked at it is that my job is to serve the writing. And that if I serve the writing, I will... in a sense, serve myself because I'll be in the right world. I'll be in the right context.
I'll be in the right style. I'll have embraced what a director's, you know, it's not my painting. It's someone else's painting. I'm a series of colors in someone else's painting. And the barometer for me has always been that when people stop me and talk to me about a character I've played and reference their name as if they actually exist, that's when I feel like I've gotten close to doing my job.
Yeah, one of the challenges for me in this conversation is remembering that your name is Kevin, not Frank or John or any of these characters. Because they live deeply in the psyche.
To me, that's the greatest compliment for me as an actor. I love being able to go. I mean, when I think about performers who inspire me, And I remember when I was young and I was introduced to Spencer Tracy, Henry Fonda, Katherine Hepburn. I just, I believed who they were. I knew nothing about them. They were just these extraordinary characters doing this extraordinary stuff.
And then I think more... recently contemporary, when I think of the work that Philip Seymour Hoffman did and Heath Ledger and people that, when I think about what they could be doing, what they could do, what they would have done had they stayed with us, I'm so excited when I go into a cinema or I go into a play and I completely am taken to some place that
I believe exists in characters that become real.
And those characters become like lifelong companions. Like for me, they travel with you. And even if it's the darkest aspects of human nature, they're always there. I feel like I almost met them and gotten to know them and gotten to become like friends with them almost. Hannibal Lecter or Forrest Gump. I mean, I've... I feel like I'm best friends with Forrest Gump. I know the guy.
And I guess he's played by some guy named Tom, but Forrest Gump is the guy I'm friends with. Yeah. And I think everybody feels like that when they're in the audience with great characters. They just kind of become part of you in some way, the good, the bad, and the ugly of them.
One of the things that I feel that I try to do in my work is when I read something for the first time, when I read a script or play, and I am absolutely devastated by it. It is the most extraordinary, the most beautiful, the most life affirming or terrifying. It's then a process, weirdly, of working backwards.
Because I want to work in such a way that that's the experience I give to the audience when they first see it. That they have the experience I had when I read it. I remember that there's been times in the creative process when something was pointed out to me or something was... I remember I was doing a play and I was having this really tough time with a...
one of the last scenes in the play, and I just couldn't figure it out. I was in rehearsal, and although we had a director in that play, I called another, a friend of mine who was also director, and I had him come over, and I said, look, this scene, I'm just having the toughest, I cannot seem to crack this scene.
And so we read it through a couple of times, and then this wonderful director named John Swanbeck, who would eventually direct me in a film called The Big Kahuna, but this was before that, He said to me the most incredible thing. He just said, all right, what's the last line you have in this scene before you fall over and fall asleep? And I said, the last line is that last drink, the old KO.
And he went, okay, I want you to think about what that line actually means and then work backwards. And so he left, and I sort of was left with this, what? Like, what does that mean? How am I supposed to? And then like a couple of days went by, a couple of days went by, and I thought, okay, so what does that line actually mean? Well, that last drink, the old KO.
KO is knockout, which is a boxing term. It's the only boxing term the writer uses in the play. And then I went back and I realized my friend was so smart and so incredible to have said, ask a question you haven't thought of asking yet. I realized that the playwright wrote the last round, the eighth round between these two brothers, and it was a fight. physical as well as emotional.
And when I brought that into the rehearsal room to the directors doing that play, he liked that idea. And we staged that scene as if it was the eighth round, although the audience wouldn't have known that. But just what I loved about that was that somebody said to me, ask yourself a question you haven't asked yourself yet. What does that line mean? And then we're back.
What is that, like a catalyst for thinking deeply about what is magical about this play, this story, this narrative? That's what that is, like thinking backwards, that's what that does?
Yeah, but also because it's this incredible... Why didn't I think to ask that question myself? That's what you have directors for. That's what you have, you know, so many places where ideas can come from. But that just illustrates that even though in my brain I go, I always like to work backwards, I missed it in that one.
And I'm very grateful to my friend for having pushed me into being able to realize what that meant and
to ask the interesting question. I like the poetry and the humility of I'm just a series of colors in someone else's painting. That was a good line. That said, you've talked about improvisation. You said that it's all about the ability to do it again and again and again and yet never make it the same. And you also just said that you're trying to stay true to the text.
So where's the room for the... that it's never the same?
Well, there's two slightly different contexts, I think. One is in the rehearsal room. Improvisation could be a wonderful device. I mean, Sam Mendes, for example, he'll start a scene and he does this wonderful thing. He brings rugs and he brings chairs and sofas in and he says, well, let's put two chairs here and here. You guys, let's start in these chairs far apart from each other.
Let's see what happens with the scene if you're that far apart. And so we'll do the scene that way. And then he goes, okay, let's bring a rug in and let's bring these chairs much closer and let's see what happens if the space, if the space between you is. And so then you try it that way. And then, you know, it's a little harder in Shakespeare to improv, but in any situation where you,
You want to try and see where could a scene go? Where would the scene go if I didn't make that choice? Where would the scene go if I made this choice? Where would the scene go if I didn't say that or I said something else? So that's how improv can be a valuable process to learn about limits and boundaries.
and what's going on with a character that somehow you discover in, in, in trying something that isn't on the page. Then there's the different thing, which is the trying to make it fresh and trying to make it new. And that is really a reference to theater.
Um, I'll put it to you this way. Um,
Anybody loves sports, right? So you go and you watch on a pitch, you watch on a tennis game, you watch basketball, you watch football. Yeah, the rules are the same, but it's a different game every time you're out on that court or on that field. It's no different in theater. Yes, it's the same lines. Maybe even blocking is similar.
But what's different is attack, intention, how you are growing in a role and watching your fellow actors grow in theirs and how every night it's a new audience and they're reacting differently. And you literally, where you can go from week one of performances in a play to week 12 is extraordinary.
And the difference between theater and film is that no matter how good someone might think you are in a movie, you'll never be any better. It's frozen. Whereas I can be better tomorrow night than I was tonight. I can be better in a week than I was tonight. It is a living, breathing, shifting, changing, growing thing every single day.
But also in theater, there's no safety net. If you fuck it up, everybody gets to see you do that.
And if you start giggling on stage, everyone gets to see you do that too, which I am very guilty of.
I mean, there is something... of a seduction of an audience in theater even more intense than there is when you're talking about film. I got a chance to watch the documentary Now in the Wings on a world stage, which is behind the scenes of, you mentioned, you teaming up with Sam Mendes in 2011 to stage Richard III, a play by William Shakespeare. I was also surprised to learn
You haven't really done much Shakespeare, or at least you said that in the movie. But there's a lot of interesting behind-the-scenes stuff there. First of all, the camaraderie of everybody, how the bond theater creates, especially when you're traveling.
But another interesting thing you mentioned with the chairs of Sam and his trying different stuff, it seemed like everybody was really open to trying stuff, embarrassing themselves, taking risks, all of that. I suppose that's part... of acting in general, but theater especially. Just take risks. It's okay to embarrass the shit out of yourself, including the director.
And it's also because you become a family.
It's unlike a movie where I might have a scene with so-and-so on this day and then another scene with them in a week and a half, and then that's the only scenes we have in the whole movie together. Every single day, when you show up in the rehearsal room, it's the whole company. You're all up for it every day. You're learning, you're growing, you're trying.
And there is an incredible trust that happens. And I was, of course, fortunate that some of the things I learned and observed about being a part of that family, being included in that family, and being a part of creating that family, I was able to observe from people like Jack Lemmon, who who led many companies that I was fortunate to work in and be a part of.
There's also a sad moment where at the end, everybody is really sad to say goodbye because you do form a family and then it's over. I guess somebody said that that's just part of theater. I mean, there's a kind of assumed goodbye and that this is it.
Yeah, and also there are some times when, like six months later, I'll wake up in the middle of the night and I'll go, that's how to play that scene.
Yeah.
Oh, God, I just finally figured it out. So maybe you can speak a little bit more to that. What's the difference between film acting and live theater acting?
I don't really think there is any. I think there's just... you eventually learn about yourself on film. You know, when I first did like my first episode of The Equalizer, you know, it's just, it's just horrible. It's just so bad. But I didn't know about myself. I didn't, so slowly you begin to learn about yourself, but I think good acting is good acting. And I think that,
If a camera's right here, you know that your front row is also your back row. You just don't have to do so much. There is...
in theater a particular kind of energy almost like an athlete that you have to have vocally to be able to get up seven performances a week and never lose your voice and always be there and always be alive and always be doing the best work you can that you just don't require in film you know you don't have to have the same um It just doesn't require the same kind of stamina that doing a play does.
It just feels like also in theater, you have to become the character more intensely because you can't take a break. You can't take a bathroom break. You're like on stage. This is you.
Yeah, but you have no idea what's going on on stage with the actors. I mean, I have literally laughed thickly through speeches that I had to give because my fellow actors were putting carrots up their nose or broccoli in their ears or doing whatever they were doing to make me laugh. So they're just having fun. They're having the time of their life.
And by the way, Judi Dench is the worst giggler of all. I mean, they had to bring the curtain down on her and Maggie Smith because they were laughing so hard they could not continue the play.
So even when you're doing like a dramatic monologue still, they're still fucking with you. There's stuff.
Okay, that's great.
That's good to know. You also said, interesting line, that improvisation helps you learn about the character. Can you explain that? So like through maybe playing with the different ways of saying the words or the different ways to bring the words to life, you get to learn about yourself, about the character you're playing.
It can be helpful. But Improv is, I'm a big, such a big believer in the writing and in serving the writing and doing the words the writer wrote. That improv for me, unless you're just doing like comedy and, you know, like, I mean, I love improv and In comedy, it's brilliant. So much fun to watch people just come up with something right there.
But that's where you're looking for laughs and you're specifically in a little scene that's being created. But I think improv has had value, but I have not experienced it as much in doing plays as I have sometimes in doing film where you'll start off rehearsing and a director may say, let's just go off book and see what happens.
And I've had moments in film where someone went off book and it was terrifying. There was a scene I had in Glen Gary Glen Ross where the character I play has fucked something up, has just screwed something up, and Pacino is livid. And so we had this scene where Al is walking like this, and the camera is moving with him, and he is chewing me a new asshole.
And in the middle of the take, Al starts talking about me,
Oh, Kevin, you don't think we know how you got this job? You don't think we know whose dick you've been sucking on to get this part in this movie?
And I'm now, I'm literally like, I don't know what the hell is happening, but I'm reacting. We got to the end of that take. Al walked up to me and he went, oh, that was so good.
Oh my God, that was so good. Just so you know, the sound, I asked them not to record. So you have no dialogue, so it's just me.
Oh, that was so good. You look like a car wreck. And I was like, yeah. And it was actually an incredibly generous thing that he gave me so that I would react. Oh, wow. Did they use that shot? Because you were in shock. It was my closeup. Yeah.
Yeah. And yeah, that's the take. That was an intense interaction. I mean, what was it like, if we can just linger on that, just that intense scene with Al Pacino?
Well, he's the reason I got the movie. A lot of people might think because Jack was in the film that he had something to do with it. But actually, I was doing a play called Lost in Yonkers on Broadway. And we had the same dresser who worked with him, a girl named Laura. It was wonderful. Laura Beattie. And she told Al that he should come and see this play because she wanted to see me in this play.
I was playing this gangster. It was a fun, fun, fun part. So I didn't know Pacino came on some night and saw this play. And then like three days later, I got a call to come in and audition for this Glen Ross, which of course I knew is a play, David Mamet's play. And then I auditioned. Jamie Foley was the director who would eventually direct a bunch of House of Cards. Wonderful, wonderful guy.
And I got the part. Well, I didn't quite get the part. They were going to bring together the actors that they thought they were going to give the parts to on a Saturday at Al's office. And they asked me if I would come and do a read-through. And I said, who's going to be there? And they said, well, so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so. And then Jack Lemmon is flying in.
And I said, don't tell Mr. Lemmon that I'm doing the read-through. Is that possible? And they were like, sure. So I'll never forget this. Jack was sitting in a chair in Pacino's office. doing the New York Times crossword puzzle as he did every day. And I walked in the door and he went, oh, Jesus Christ. Is it possible you could get a job without me? Jesus Christ.
I'm so tired of holding up your end of it. Oh, my God. Jesus Christ. So I got the job because of Pacino. And it was really one of the first major roles that I ever had in a film. And, you know, to be working with that group,
Yeah, that's like one of the greatest ensemble casts ever. We got Al Pacino, Jack Lemmon, Alec Baldwin, Alan Arkin, Ed Harris, you, Jonathan Pryce. It's just incredible. And I have to say, I mean, maybe you can comment. You've talked about how much of a mentor and a friend Jack Lemmon has been. That's one of his greatest performances ever.
You have a scene at the end of the movie with him that was really powerful. like firing on all cylinders, you're playing disdain to perfection, and he's playing desperation to perfection. What a scene. What was that like? Just like at the top of your game, the two of you.
Well, by that time, we had done Long Day's Journey Tonight in the theater. We'd done a miniseries called The Murder of Mary Fagan on NBC. We'd done a film called Dad. that Gary David Goldberg directed, with Ted Danson. So this was the fourth time we were working together, and we knew each other. He'd become my father figure.
And I don't know if you know that I originally met Jack Lemmon when I was very, very young. He was doing a production at the Mark Taper Forum of a Sean O'Casey play called Juno and the Peacock with Walter Matthau and Maureen Stapleton. And on a Saturday in December of 1974, my junior high school drama class went to a workshop. It was called How to Audition. And we did this workshop.
Many schools in Southern California were part of this Drama Teachers Association. So we got these incredible experiences of being able to go see professional productions and be involved in these workshops or festivals. So I had to get up and do a monologue in front of Mr. Lemon when I was 13 years old. And he walked up to me at the end of that, and he put his hand on my shoulder, and he said,
He said, no, everything I've been talking about, you just did. What's your name? I said, Kevin. He said, wait, let me tell you something. When you get finished with high school, as I'm sure you're going to go on and do theater, you should go to New York and you should study to be an actor because this is what you're meant to do with your life. And he was like an idol. And 12 years later,
I read in the New York Times that he was coming to Broadway to do this production of A Long Day's Journey tonight, a year and some months after I read this article. And I was like, I'm going to play Jamie in that production.
And I then, with a lot of opposition, because the cast and director didn't want to see me, they said that the director, Jonathan Miller, wanted movie actors to play the two sons. And ultimately, I found out that Jonathan Miller, the director, was coming to New York to do a series of lectures at Alice Tully Hall. And I went to try to figure out how I could maybe meet him.
And I was sitting in that theater listening to this incredible lecture he was doing. And sitting next to me was an elderly woman. I mean, elderly, 80-something. She was asleep. But sticking out of her handbag, which was on the floor, was an invitation to a cocktail reception in honor of Dr. Jonathan Miller. And so I thought, you know, she's tired. She's probably going to go home.
So I took that and walked into this cocktail reception. went over to Dr. Miller, who was incredibly kind, and said, sit down, I'm always very curious, what brings young people to my lectures? And I said to him, Eugene O'Neill brought me here. And he was like, what? I've always wanted to meet him, where is he?
And I told him that I'd been trying for seven months to get an audition for A Long Day's Journey, and that his American cast directors were telling my agents that he wanted big American movie stars. And at that moment, he turned and he saw one of those casting directors who was there that night. Because I knew he was going to be in New York starting auditions that week.
And she was staring daggers at me. And he just got it. And he said, someone have a pen. And he took a little paper and started writing. He said, listen, Kevin, there are many situations in which casting directors have a lot of say and a lot of power and a lot of leverage. And then there are other situations where they just take directors' messages. And on this one, they're taking my messages.
This is where I'm staying. Make sure you people get to me. We start auditions on Thursday. And on Thursday, I had an opportunity to come in and audition for this play that I'd been working on and preparing for.
And at the end of it, I did four scenes at the end of it, he said to me that unless someone else came in and blew him against the wall like I had just done, as far as he was concerned, I pretty much had the part, but I couldn't tell my agents that yet because I had to come back and read with Mr. Lemon.
And so three months later, in August of 1985, I found myself in a room with Jack Lemon again at 890 Broadway, which is where they rehearse a lot of the Broadway plays. And we did four scenes together and I was toppling over him. I was pushing him. I was relentless. And I'll never forget at the end of that, Lemon came over to me.
He put his hand on my shoulder and he said, that was a touch of terrific. I never thought we'd find the rotten kid, but he's it. Jesus Christ, what the hell was that? And I ended up spending the next year of my life with that man.
So it turns out he was right. Yeah. This world works in mysterious ways. It also speaks to the fact of the power of somebody you look up to giving words of encouragement because those can just reverberate through your whole life and just like make the path clear.
I've always, we used to joke that if every contract came with a Jack Lemmon clause, it would be a more beautiful world.
Beautifully said. Jack Lemmon is one of the greatest actors ever. What do you think makes him so damn good?
Wow. I think he truly set out in his life to accomplish what his father said to him on his deathbed. His father was, by the way, called the Donut King in Boston. And not in the entertainment business at all. He literally owned a donut company. And when he was passing away, Jack said, the last thing my father said to me was, go out there and spread a little sunshine.
And I truly think that's what Jack loved to do. I remember this, and I don't know if this will answer your question, but I think it's revealing about what he's able to do and what he was able to do and how that ultimately influenced what I was able to do. Sam Mendes had never directed a film before American Beauty.
And so what he did was he took the best elements of theater and applied them to the process. So we rehearsed it like a play in a soundstage where everything was laid out like it would be in a play and this couch will be here. And yeah. He'd sent me a couple of tapes.
He'd sent me two cassette tapes, one that he'd like to call pre-Lester, before he begins to move in any direction, and then post-Lester. And they just were different songs. And then he said to me one day, and I always thought this was brilliant of Sam to use Lemon, knowing what Lemon meant to me. He said, when was the last time you watched The Apartment? I said, I don't know.
I mean, I love that movie so much. He goes, I want you to watch it again and then let's talk. So I went and I watched the movie again. And we sat down and Sam said, what Lemon does in that film is incredible because there is never a moment in the movie where we see him change.
He just evolves.
And he becomes the man he becomes because of the experiences that he has through the course of the film. But there's this remarkable consistency in who he becomes. And that's what I need you to do as Lester. I don't want the audience to ever see him change. I want him to evolve. And so we did some, I mean, first of all, it was just a great direction.
And then second of all, we did some things that people don't know we did to aid that gradual shift of that man's character. First of all, I had to be in the best shape from the beginning of the movie because we didn't shoot it in sequence. So I was in this crazy shape. I had this wonderful trainer named Mike Torsha, who just was incredible.
But so what we did was, in order to then show this gradual shift, was I had three different hair pieces, I had three different kinds of costumes of different colors and sizes, and I had different makeup.
so in the beginning i was wearing a kind of drab dull slightly you know uninspired hair piece and my makeup was kind of gray and boring and i was a little bit there were times when i was like too much like this and sam would go kevin you look like walter math out would you please stand up a little bit we're sort of midway through at this point and
Then, at a certain point, the wig changed and it had little highlights in it, a little more color, a little more... The makeup became a little... The suits got a little tighter. And then finally, a third wig that was golden highlights and sunshine and rosy cheeks and tight fit. And these are what we call theatrical tricks.
This is how you... An audience doesn't even know it's happening, but it is this gradual... And I just always felt that that was such a brilliant way because he knew what I felt about Jack. And when you watch The Apartment, it is extraordinary that he doesn't ever change.
And in fact, I thanked Jack when I won the Oscar.
And I did my thank you speech and I walked off stage and I remember I had to sit down for a moment because I didn't wanna go to the press room because I wanted to see if Sam was gonna win. And so I was waiting and my phone rang and it was Lemon. He said, you're a son of a bitch. I said, what?
He goes, first of all, congratulations and thanks for thanking me because, you know, God knows you couldn't have done it without me. He said, second of all, he said, do you know how long it took me to win from supporting actor? I won it for Mr. Roberts and it took me like 10, 12 years to win Oscar. You did it in four, you son of a bitch.
Yeah. The apartment was, I mean, it's widely considered... one of the greatest movies ever. People sometimes refer to it as a comedy, which is an interesting kind of classification. I suppose that's a lesson about comedy, that the best comedy is the one that's basically a tragedy.
Well, I mean, some people think Clockwork Orange is a comedy. And I'm not saying there aren't some good laughs in Clockwork Orange, but yeah, you know, it's...
I mean, yeah. What's that line between comedy and tragedy for you?
Well, if it's a line, it's a line I cross all the time, because I've tried always to find the humor. Unexpected sometimes, maybe inappropriate sometimes, maybe shocking. But I've tried in, I think, almost every dramatic role I've had to have a sense of humor and to be able to bring that along with everything else that is serious. Because frankly, that's how we deal with stuff in life.
You know? I think Sam Mendes actually said in the Now documentary, something like, with great theater, with great stories, you find humor on the journey to the heart of darkness. Something like this. Very poetic. I'm sorry, I can't be that poetic. I'm very sorry. But it's true. I mean, the people I've interacted in this world have been to a war zone and
the ones who have lost the most and have suffered the most are usually the ones who are able to make jokes the quickest. And the jokes are often dark and absurd and cross every single line. No political correctness, all of that.
Sure. Well, I mean, you know, it's like... the great Mary Tyler Moore show where they can't stop giggling at the clown's funeral. I mean, it's just one of the great episodes ever. You know, giggling at a funeral is as bad as farting at a funeral. And, you know, I'm sure that there's some people who've done both.
Oh, man. So you mentioned American beauty. And the idea of... not changing, but evolving. That's really interesting because that movie is about finding yourself. It's a philosophically profound movie. It's about various characters in their own ways finding their own identity in a world where... maybe a materialistic system that wants you to be like everyone else.
And so, I mean, Lester just really transforms himself throughout the movie. And you're saying the challenge there is to still be the same human being fundamentally.
Yeah, and I also think that the film was powerful because you had three very honest and genuine portrayal of young people. And then you had Lester behaving like a young person, doing things that were unexpected. And I think that...
The honesty with which it dealt with those issues that those teenagers were going through, and the honesty with which it dealt with what Lester was going through, I think are some of the reasons why the film had the response that it did from so many people. I mean, I used to get stopped, and someone would say to me, when I first saw American Beauty, I was married.
And the second time I saw it, I wasn't.
And I was like, well, we weren't trying to increase the divorce rate. It wasn't our intention.
But it is interesting how so many people have those kinds of crazy fantasies. And what I admired so much about who Lester was as a person, why I wanted to play him, is because in the end, he makes the right decision.
I think a lot of people live lives of quiet desperation in a job they don't like, in a marriage they're unhappy in, and to see somebody living that life and then saying, fuck it. in every way possible, and not just in a cynical way, but in a way that opens them, opens Lester up to see the beauty in the world. That's, you know, the beauty in American beauty.
It's... Well, and you know, you may have to blackmail your boss to get there, but you know. And in that, there's a bunch of humor also. In the anger, in the absurdity of sort of taking a stand against the conformity of life, There's this humor. And I read somewhere that the scene, the dinner scene, which is kind of play-like, where Lester slams the plate against the wall was improvised by you?
The slamming of the plate against the wall. No. No. Absolutely. The internet lies once again.
Absolutely. Written and directed by... Yeah, can't take credit for that.
The plate, okay. Well, that was a genius interaction there. There's something about the dinner table. and losing your shit at the dinner table. Having a fight and losing your shit at the dinner table. Where else? Like Yellowstone was another situation where it's a family at the dinner table and then one of them says, fuck it, I'm not eating this anymore and I'm going to create a scene.
It's a beautiful kind of environment for dramatic scenes. Or Nicholson and the Shining. Yeah.
There's some family scenes gone awry in that movie.
The contrast between you and Annette Bening in that scene creates the genius of that scene. So how much of acting is the dance between two actors?
Well, with Annette, I just adored working with her. And we were the two actors that Sam wanted from the very beginning. much against the will of the higher-ups who wanted other actors to play those roles. But I've known Annette since we did a screen test together for Milos Forman for a film he did of the Les Liaisons Dangereuses movie.
It was a different film from that one, but it was the same story. And I've always thought she is just remarkable. And I think that the work she did in that film, the relationship that we were able to build. For me, the saddest part of that success was that she didn't win the Oscar, and I felt she should have.
What kind of interesting direction did you get from Sam Mendes in how you approached playing Lester and how did it take on the different scenes? There's a lot of just brilliant scenes in that movie.
Well, I'll share with you a story that most people don't know, which is our first two days of shooting were in Smiley's. the place where I get a job in a fast food place. Yeah, it's a burger joint. Yeah. And I guess it was like maybe the third day or the fourth day of shooting, we'd now done that. And I said to Sam, so how are the dailies? How do they look? He goes, which ones?
I said, well, the first smileys. He goes, oh, they're shit. And I went, yeah. No, how were they? He goes, no, they're shit. I hate them. I hate everything about them. I hate the costumes. I hate the location. I hate that you're inside. I hate the way you acted. I hate everything but the script. So I've gone back to the studio and asked them if we can reshoot the first two days.
And I was like, Sam, this is your very first movie. You're going back to Steven Spielberg and saying, I need to reshoot the first two days entirely? And he went, yeah.
And that's exactly what we did. A couple of weeks later, they decided that it was now a drive-thru because Annette and Peter Geller used to come into the place and ordered from the counter. Now, Sam had decided it has to be a drive-thru. You have to be in the window of the drive-thru, change the costumes, and we reshot those first two days. And Sam said, it was actually a moment of incredible joy.
because he said the worst thing that could possibly have happened happened in my first two days. And after that, I was like, I know what I'm doing, and I knew I had to reshoot it, and it was absolutely right.
And I guess that's what a great director must do is have the guts in that moment to reshoot everything. I mean, that's a pretty gutsy move.
Two other little things to share with you about Sam, about the way he is. You wouldn't know it, but the original script opened and closed with a trial. Ricky was accused of Lester's murder. And the movie was bookended by this trial. It's a very different movie. Which they shot the entire trial for weeks. Okay? Wow, yeah. And I used to fly in my dreams.
You know those opening shots over the neighborhood? I used to come into those shots in my bathrobe, flying, and then when I hit the ground and the newspaper was thrown at me by the newspaper guy and I caught it, the alarm would go off and I'd wake up in bed. I spent five days being hung by wires and filming these sequences of flying through my dreams.
And Sam said to me,
Yeah, the flying sequences are all gone and the trial is gone. And I was like, what? What are you talking about? And here's my other little favorite story about Sam and that. When we were shooting in the valley, one of those places I flew, this was an indoor set.
Sam said to me in the morning, hey, at lunch, I just want to record a guide track of all the dialogue, all of your narration, because they just needed an editing as a guide. And I said, sure. So I remember we came outside in this hallway where I had a dressing room in this little studio we were in. And Sam had like a cassette tape recorder and like a little microphone.
And we put it on the floor, and he pushed record. And I read the entire narration. And I never did it again. That's the narration in the movie. Because Sam said, when he listened to it, I wasn't trying to do anything. He said, you had no idea where these things were going, where they were going to be placed, what they were going to mean.
You just read it so innocently, so purely, so directly that I knew if I brought you into a studio and put headphones on you and had you do it again, it would change the ease with which you'd done it. And so they just fixed all of the problems that they had with this little cassette. And that is the way I did it, and the only time I did it was in this little hallway.
And once again, a great performance lies in doing less.
Yeah.
The innocence and the purity of lust.
Yeah.
What do you think about the notion of beauty that permeates American beauty? What do you think that theme is with the roses, with the rose petals, the characters that are living this mundane existence slowly opening their eyes up to what is beautiful in life?
See, it's funny. I don't think of the roses, and I don't think of her body in the poster, and I don't think of those things as the beauty.
I think of the bag. I think that there are things we miss that are right in front of us that are truly beautiful.
The little things, the simple things.
Yeah, and in fact, I'll even tell you something that I always thought was so incredible. When we shot the scenes in the office where Lester worked, the job he hated, there was a bulletin board behind me on a wall. And someone who was watching a cut or early dailies who was in the marketing department saw that someone had cut out a little piece of paper and stuck it. And it said, look closer.
And they presented that to Sam as the idea of what that should, that could go on the poster. The idea of looking closer was such a brilliant idea, but it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't like, it wasn't in the script. It was just on a wall behind me and someone happened to zoom in on it and see it and thought, that's what this movie's about. This movie's about taking the time to look closer.
And I think that in itself is just beautiful.
Mortality also permeates the film. It starts with acknowledging that death is on the way, that Lester's time is finite. You ever think about your own death? Yeah. Scared of it?
When I was at my lowest point, yes, it scared me.
What does that fear look like? What's the nature of the fear? What are you afraid of?
That there's no way out.
That there's no answer. That nothing makes sense.
See, the interesting thing about Lester is facing the same fear. He seemed to be somehow liberated and accepted everything and then saw the beauty of it.
Because he got there. He was given the opportunity to reinvent himself and to try things he'd never tried, to ask questions he'd never asked, to... to trust his instincts and to become the best version of himself he could become. And so Dick Van Dyke, who has become an extraordinary friend of mine, Dick is 98 years old.
And he says, you know, if I'd known I was going to live this long, I would have taken better care of myself. When I spend time with him, I'm just moved by every day, you know, he gets up and he goes, it's a good day. I woke up and I learn a lot about, I have a, a different feeling about death now than I did seven years ago. Uh,
And I'm on the path to being able to be in a place where I've resolved the things I needed to resolve. And I won't probably get to all of it in my lifetime, but I certainly would like to be in a place where if I were to drop dead tomorrow, it would have been an amazing life.
So Lester got there. It sounds like Dick Van Dyke got there. You're trying to get there. Sure. You said you feared death at your lowest point. What was the lowest point?
It was November 1st of 2017, and then Thanksgiving Day of that same year.
So let's talk about it. Let's talk about this dark time. Let's talk about the sexual allegations against you that led to you being cancelled by the entire world for the last seven years. I would like to personally understand the sins, the bad things you did, and the bad things you didn't do. So I also should say that the thing I hope to do here is to Give respect to due process.
Innocent until proven guilty that the mass hysteria machine of the internet and clickbait journalism doesn't do. So here's what I understand. There were criminal and civil trials brought against you, including the one that started it all when Anthony Rapp sued you for $40 million. In these trials, you were acquitted found not guilty and not liable. Is that right? Yes.
I think that's really important, again, in terms of due process. And I read a lot, and I watched a lot in preparation for this on this point, including, of course, the recently detailed interviews you did with Dan Wooten and then Alison Pearson of The Telegraph. And those are all focused on this topic, and they go in detail where you respond in detail to many of the allegations.
If people are interested in the details, they can listen to those. So based on that and everything I looked at, as I understand, you never prevented anyone from leaving if they wanted to, sort of in a sexual context, for example, by blocking the door. Is that right? That's correct, yeah. You always respected the explicit no from people, again, in the sexual context, is that right?
That is correct. You've never done anything sexual with an underage person, right? Never. And also, as is sometimes done in Hollywood, let me ask this, you've never explicitly offered to exchange sexual favors for career advancement, correct?
Correct.
In terms of bad behavior, what did you do? What was the worst of it? And how often did you do it?
I have heard, and now quite often, that everybody has a Kevin Spacey story. And what that tells me is that I hit on a lot of guys.
How often did you cross the line, and what does that mean to you?
I did a lot of horsing around, I did a lot of things that at the time I thought were sort of playful and fun, and I have learned since we're not. And I have had to recognize that I crossed some boundaries and I did some things that were wrong and I made some mistakes. And that's in my past.
I mean, I've been working so hard over these last seven years to have the conversations I needed to have, to listen to people, to understand things from a different perspective than the one that I had, and to say, I will never behave that way again for the rest of my life.
Just to clarify, I think you're often too pushy with the flirting. And that manifests itself in multiple ways. But just to make clear, you never prevented anyone from leaving if they wanted to. You always took the explicit no from people as an answer. No, stop. You took that for the answer.
you've never done anything sexual with an underage person, and you've never explicitly offered to exchange sexual favors for career advancement. These are some of the sort of accusations that have been made, and in the court of law, multiple times have been shown not to be true.