Lex Fridman Podcast
#437 – Jordan Jonas: Survival, Hunting, Siberia, God, and Winning Alone Season 6
Sun, 21 Jul 2024
Jordan Jonas is a wilderness survival expert, explorer, hunter, guide, and winner of Alone Season 6, a show in which the task is to survive alone in the arctic wilderness longer than anyone else. He is widely considered to be one of the greatest competitors in the history on that show. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - HiddenLayer: https://hiddenlayer.com/lex - Notion: https://notion.com/lex - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get $350 off AMA - Submit Questions to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/ama-questions Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/jordan-jonas-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Jordan's Instagram: https://instagram.com/hobojordo Jordan's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@hobojordo Jordan's Website: https://jordanjonas.com/ Jordan's X: https://x.com/hobojordo PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (11:25) - Alone Season 6 (45:43) - Arctic (1:01:59) - Roland Welker (1:09:34) - Freight trains (1:21:19) - Siberia (1:39:45) - Hunger (1:59:29) - Suffering (2:14:15) - God (2:29:15) - Mortality (2:34:59) - Resilience (2:46:45) - Hope (2:49:30) - Lex AMA
The following is a conversation with Jordan Jonas, winner of Alone Season 6, a show where the task is to survive alone in the Arctic wilderness longer than anyone else. He is widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest competitors on that show.
He has a fascinating life story that took him from a farm in Idaho and hoboing on trains across America to traveling with nomadic tribes in Siberia. All that helped make him into a world-class explorer, survivor, hunter, wilderness guide, and most importantly, a great human being with a big heart and a big smile. This was a truly fun and fascinating conversation.
Let me also mention that at the end, after the episode, I'll start answering some questions and we'll try to articulate my thinking on some top of mind topics. So if that's of interest to you, keep listening after the episode is over. And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description. It's the best way to support this podcast.
We got Hidden Layer for securing your AI models, Notion for team collaboration and taking notes, Shopify for selling stuff online, NetSuite for managing your business, Element for electrolytes, and 8sleep for naps. Choose wisely, my friends. Also, if you want to work with our amazing team or just want to get in touch, go to lexfriedman.com slash contact. And now, on to the full ad reads.
As always, no ads in the middle. I try to make this interesting, but if you skip them, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. This episode is brought to you by Hidden Layer, a platform that provides security for your machine learning models. I've got a chance to recently visit the GPU cluster that Tesla AI and XAI are building.
And, well, first of all, I was extremely impressed by the rapid rate of progress, and there's a lot more to be said about that. Maybe I'll have a conversation with Elon soon. But in general, I just want to comment how humbled I was by just the sheer scale of computation that a GPU cluster is carrying, and it's quickly growing.
And just being able to see that in person, it makes it very visceral, very real that these machine learning models have power. And that we as a civilization carry a heavy responsibility to make sure that we use them in a way that doesn't hurt others. And I think security vulnerabilities is the near term way of hurting others.
So it's really important to minimize the number of security vulnerabilities. The battle to minimize the number of bugs, the number of attack vectors, the size of the attack vectors on the machine learning models and on software in general is a worthy battle to fight. And so I'm glad Hidden Layer is fighting that battle, especially in the context of machine learning.
Visit hiddenlayer.com to learn more about how Hidden Layer can accelerate your AI adoption in a secure way. This episode is also brought to you by Notion, a note-taking and team collaboration tool. I've used it for a long time for note-taking, and I think the process of note-taking is a science and an art and one I take extremely seriously.
Writing is a process that's essential for concretizing your thoughts. Without that, thoughts are a kind of amorphous, ephemeral thing that just kind of shows up without a clear structure and leaves before you have a chance to really internalize it. So the process of writing does just that. It makes the thought more permanent, it gives it structure, and so note-taking is a process
that I think is essential to thinking. And I use bullet points and nested bullet points, and Notion does that extremely well. And so I use Notion to organize my thoughts. But I think they also do an incredible job of collaboration for larger and larger teams.
And they integrate an AI assistant into the whole thing that helps you summarize, and doing all the LLM things that you now expect, but they do that in a seamless way. Try Notion AI for free when you go to notion.com slash lex. That's all lowercase notion.com slash lex to try the power of Notion AI today.
This episode is brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great looking online store. I've set one up in a few minutes at lexgaming.com slash store to sell a few shirts. There's something about the ease and scale and the efficiency of Shopify that always makes me think about the machinery of capitalism.
and also because I've been beginning to read the history of human civilization as covered by Will Durant and Ariel Durant, I suddenly feel humbled by the scale of it all and how capitalism As an idea, the modern version of it, is a relatively recent one, just a handful of centuries, just with the Industrial Revolution.
And we humans have been battling with this idea, whether the means of production should be owned by the state or by the individual. And now everybody's talking like that's such an obvious thing, but it isn't. Every genius idea is obvious in retrospect, and the entire story of humans on Earth is a long chain of experiments, successful and failed ones, and from each we'll learn, and we always rise.
That's the fascinating thing about us humans. We always survive. We always find a way. That's actually one of the central kernels behind my optimism about the future of humanity. But anyway, back to a store. If you want to set one up, sign up for a dollar per month trial period at shopify.com slash lex, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash lex to take your business to the next level today.
This episode is also brought to you by NetSuite, an all-in-one cloud business management system. And actually, back to capitalism, because once again, business is at the core of the capitalist machine. I find that there is various communities now that dedicate themselves to rigorously analyzing the failures of capitalism at the edges.
But in those communities and in general, we don't often celebrate the positive impacts, the positive metrics over time that capitalism has resulted in in society. And I think just the number of people living in poverty decreasing drastically under regimes that enable free markets should serve as a...
inspiring notion for anyone who wants to build a business, for the very fact that humans build businesses, that we together keep trying. It's the craziest thing. To start a business is the craziest idea, because most likely you're going to fail. It really is the stupidest possible thing, except it is not. except that dream is the very engine that enables progress.
So I'm a big fan of startups, of small businesses, and grateful that humans take the risk, and I'm grateful that humans find a way. Anyway, NetSuite is a good tool to manage businesses. Over 37,000 companies have upgraded to NetSuite by Oracle. Take advantage of NetSuite's flexible financing plan at netsuite.com slash lex. That's netsuite.com slash lex.
This episode is also brought to you by Element, an electrolyte drink that I love and depend on, especially when I'm taking long distance runs in Austin heat. It's often 95, 100 degree Fahrenheit, and I love it. 10, 12, 15 miles, let's go. But yes, you have to consume a large amount of electrolytes before and after to make sure I'm feeling good. One of these days I should probably run a marathon.
But I don't run for time. I don't run to a destination. I don't run because I have to. I don't really run for exercise sake. I run so I can think clearly and contend with the heavier of my thoughts. Because when I'm out there just by myself, whether no sound or brown noise in my ears, I get to really think clearly.
There's something about sort of physical challenge, especially the higher pace, where I start getting uncomfortable and the uncomfortable thoughts rise up and I get to think. And I get to face those thoughts and either meditate them away or try to figure out what is the kernel of the thing that disturbs me about those thoughts. What is it so uncomfortable? What is the thing that causes anxiety?
This could be everything from intellectual, philosophical type thoughts, technical, design, engineering challenges, or just personal life stuff. All of it. So, I love running for that reason. So, if you want to join me in the element deliciousness, get a sample pack for free with any purchase. Try it at drinkelements.com. This episode is also brought to you by Asleep. It's pod for ultra.
The ultra part is the extra thing, the base that goes between the mattress and the bed frame. It can morph like gravity does to space-time. The surface, the shape, the landscape of your bed, so it can put you in a reading position, for example. Now, it's not just the bass. Without the UltraPod 4, it's still a big upgrade to Pod 3. It doubles the cooling power.
It just upgrades a bunch of different stuff. I love it. It's a sacred place for me for the nap or the full night's sleep. The older I get, the more I understand the power of a good night's sleep. Now, of course, you also want to be flexible and robust to the craziness, the madness of That life brings your way, but when you can, find those hours of sleep.
That little quiet escape from the boiling turmoil of the world. Go to asleep.com slash Lex and use code Lex to get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra. This is the Lex Rubin Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jordan Jonas.
You won Alone season six and I think are still considered to be one of, if not the most successful survivor on that show. So let's go back. Let's look at the big picture. Can you tell me about the show Alone? How does it work?
yeah it's a show where they take 10 individuals and each person gets 10 items off of the list you know basic items would be an axe a saw a frying pan you know some pretty basic stuff and then they send them all drop them off all in the woods with a few cameras and uh so the people are actually alone there's not a crew or anything and then you uh basically live there as long as you can, you know?
And so the person that lasts the longest, you know, once the second place person taps out, they come and get you in that, in that individual wins. So it's a, it's a pretty legit challenge. You know, they, they drop you off, helicopter flies out and you're not going to get your next meal until you make it happen. So
You have to figure out the shelter, you have to figure out the source of food, and then it gets colder and colder because I guess they drop you out in a moment where it's going into the winter.
Yeah, they typically do it in temperate, colder climates, things like that, and they start in September, October, so time's ticking when they drop you off. Yeah. Yeah, the pressure's on. You get overwhelmed with all the things you have to do right away. Like, oh man, I'm not going to eat again until I actually shoot or catch something. Got to build a shelter. It's pretty overwhelming.
Figure your whole location out. But it's interesting because once you're there a little while, you kind of get into a... Well, at least for me, it did. There was like a week or maybe not a week, but that I was kind of a little more annoyed with things. You know, it's like, oh, my site sucks. And then you kind of accept it. Like, you know what? It is what it is.
No amount of complaining is going to do anybody any good. Yeah. I'm just going to make it happen. And so then, or, you know, do my best to, and then I felt like I got in a zone and I felt like I was right back in kind of Siberia or in that headspace. And I, I found I actually really enjoyed it. I had been a little bit out of, I guess you call it the game. Cause I had had, uh,
uh child and and so when we had our daughter we came back to the states and then a bunch of things happened and i just ended up we didn't end up going back to russia so it's been a couple years that i was just you know we're raising the little girl and boy then and then so you've gotten a little soft so i was like did i got a little soft
But then it was fun how like after just some days there, I was like, oh man, I feel like I'm at home now. And then it was like you're kind of in that flow state.
Actually, there's a few moments like when you left the ladder up or with the moose that you kind of screwed up a little bit.
Oh, yeah.
How do you go from that moment of like frustration to the moment of acceptance?
I mean, the more you...
put yourself in life in positions that are kind of outside your comfort zone or push your abilities the more often you're going to screw up and then yeah the more opportunity you have to learn from that and then to be honest it's kind of funny but you almost get to a position where you well you don't feel that uncomfortable it's not unexpected you know you kind of expect you're going to mess up here and there you know i remember particularly with the
um, the moose, the first moose I saw, I had a great shot at it, but I had a hard time judging distance because it was in a mud flat, which means it's hard to, it's hard to tell yardage, you know, because you usually typically go in by trees or markers and be like, oh, I'm probably 30 yards away. This was a giant moose and he was 40 something yards away.
And I estimated that he was 30 something yards away. So I was
way off and shot and dropped between his legs and then i realized i had not grabbed my quiver so i only had one shot and i just watched him turn around and walk off but i was struck initially with like i actually noticed how unmad i was i was like oh this is actually i was like that was awesome that was like seeing a dinosaur that was really cool and then i was like oh what an idiot how to miss but then i was like but it made me that much more determined to make it happen again it was like okay
nobody's gonna make this happen except myself you can't can't complain it wouldn't have done me any good to go back and mope about it and so then i was like i had a thought i was like oh i remember these native the native guys telling me they used to like build these giant fences and funnel game into certain areas and stuff and i was like man that's a lot of calories but i have to make that happen again now so i kind of went out there and tried that and that was kind of a
attempt at something too it could have failed or not worked but sure enough it worked and the opportunity came again the moose came wandering along and i was able to get it but being able to take failure as soon as you can the better accept it and then learn from it is kind of a muscle you have to exercise a little bit well it's interesting because in this case the cost of failure is like you're not going to be able to eat yeah yeah that was really interesting i mean
The most interesting thing about that show was how high the stakes felt. Because it didn't feel... You know, you didn't tell yourself you're on a show. At least I didn't. You just felt like it was... You're going to starve to death if you don't make this happen. And so the stakes felt so high. And it was an interesting thing to...
tap into because I mean so many of our ancestors probably all just dealt with that on a regular basis but it's something that we're all the modern amenities and such and food security that we don't deal with and it was interesting to tap into what a
kind of a peak mental experience that is when you really really need something to survive and then it happens it's you can't imagine i mean that's what our all our dopamine and the receptors are tuned for that experience in particular so it was yeah it was pretty awesome but the pressure felt very on like i always felt the pressure of of providing or starving
And then there's the situation when you left the ladder up. Right. And you needed fat. And what is it? The ovary needs some of the fat.
Right. Yeah. Well, it was... When I got the moose, I was so happy. The most joy I could almost experience maxed out. But I didn't think I... I didn't think I won at that point. I never thought like, oh, that's my ticket to victory. I thought, holy crap, it's going to be me against somebody else that gets a moose now. And we're going to be here six, eight months, who knows how long.
And so I can't be here six, eight months and still lose. So I've got to outproduce somebody else with a moose. So I had all that in my head. And I already was, of course, pretty thin. And so I was just like, man, if somebody else gets a moose, I'm still going to be behind. And so everything felt like...
precious to me and i had found a plastic jug and i put a whole bunch of the moose's fat in this plastic jug and set it up on a little shelf i thought you know what if a bear comes i'll probably hear it and i'll come out and be able to shoot it so i went to sleep and i woke up the next morning i went out and i was like where's that jug and then i was like wait a second what are all these prints and i started looking around and it took a second to dawn on me because i haven't interacted with wilder wolverines very often in life and uh
And I was like, oh, those are Wolverine tracks. And he was just so much sneakier than Bear would have been or something. So it kind of surprised me. And he... took off with that jug of fat. And so then I went from feeling pretty good about myself to like, now I'm losing again against whoever, you know, this other person is with a moose.
So I, again, kind of the pressure came back to, oh no, I got to produce again. You know, it wasn't the end of the world. And I think they may have exaggerated a little bit how little fat I had left. You know, I still had, a moose has a lot of fat, but it did make me feel like I was at a disadvantage again. And so. Yeah, that was pretty intense because those wolverines, they're bold little animals.
And he was basically saying, no, this is my moose. And I had to counter his claims.
Well, yeah, they're really, really smart. They figure out a way to get to places really effectively. Wolverines are like fascinating in that way. So let's go to that happy moment. The moose. You are the first and one of the only contestants to have ever killed a moose on the show. A big game animal with a bow and arrow. So this is day 20. So can you take me through the kill?
Yeah, so I'd missed one and I just decided I'm not here to starve. I'm here to try to become sustainable. So I was like, I don't care if it's a risk. I'm going to build that fence. I built it. I would just pick berries and call moose every day. And it was actually really pleasant just sitting in a berry patch and call moose. But then I also had this whole trap and snare line set out everywhere.
So I had all these... I was getting rabbits. But I went and I was actually...
taking a rabbit out of a snare when i heard a clank because i'd set up kind of an alarm system with with string and cans so it's a brilliant idea yeah another thing that could have not worked but it and it came through and i was like oh i heard the cans clink and i was like no way and so i ran over i didn't know what it was exactly but something was coming along the fence
And I ran over and jumped in the bush next to the funnel exit on the fence. And sure enough, the big moose came running up. And you know, your heart gets pounding like crazy. You're just like, no way.
I probably could have waited a little longer and had a perfect broadside shot, but I took the shot when he was, he was pretty close, like 24 yards, but he was quartering towards me, which makes it a little harder to make a perfect kill shot. And so I hit it and it took off running and I just thought, you know, I was super excited.
I couldn't believe I actually, you know, it was like, Oh my gosh, got the moose. I think that was a really good shot. You get all excited, but then it plays back in your head. And particularly when you're first learning to hunt, there's always an animal that gets away, you know, and you like, make a bad decision or not a great shot or something. And it's just, it's just part of it.
And so of course you're like, I'm not going to be satisfied until I see this thing. So I followed the blood trail a little while and I saw some bubbly blood, which meant it was hitting the lungs, which meant it's not going to live, you know, you'll get it. And so as long as you don't mess it up. And so I went back to my shelter and waited an hour. I skinned that rabbit that had caught and then
super nervous, the slowest hour ever. And then I followed it along, ended up losing the blood trail. I was like, no, no. And then I was like, well, if there's no blood, I'm just going to follow the path that I would go if I was a moose, you know, like the least resistance through the woods. So I followed kind of along the shore there. And sure enough, I saw him up there.
You know, I was so excited, lay down, but Uh, but he hadn't died yet. And so he just sat there and, and he would stand up and I would just like, no, no, no, no. And he would lay back down and be like, yes. And then he would stand up and it was like that for, uh, you know, a couple hours that took him.
And then finally at one point I, uh, you know, and a lot of people have asked like, why wouldn't you go finish it off? Um, so, uh,
when an animal like that gets hit it had no idea what hit it you know just all of a sudden it's like ah something got it and it ran off and it lays down and it's actually fairly calm and it doesn't really know what's going on and if you can leave it in that state it'll kind of bleed out and as peaceful as possible um
if you go chase after it that's when you lose an animal because as soon as it knows it's being hunted you know it gets panicked adrenaline and it can just run and run and run and you'll never find it so i didn't want it to see me i knew if i tried to get it with another arrow there's a chance i could have finished it off but there's also a not bad chance that it would see me take off or even attack because moose can be a little dangerous and so uh i just chose to wait it out and at one point it stood up and
fell over and I could tell it had died and walked over, like you actually touch it and you're just like, whoa, no way. Like that whole burden of weeks of you're going to starve, you're going to starve. And it got rid of that demon. To be honest, it's one of the happiest moments of my life. It's really hard to replicate that joy because it was just so, so real.
You're so directly connected to your needs. It's all so simple. It was a peak experience for sure. And were you worried that it would take many more hours than it would take it into the night? Yeah, I was. I mean, until you actually have your hands on it, I was worried the whole time.
It's a pretty nerve-wracking period there between when you get it and when you actually recover the animal, get your hands on it. So it took longer than I wanted, but I...
finally got it can you actually speak to the the kill shot itself just for people who don't hunt yeah that's what it takes to stay calm to to to not freak out too much to like wait but not wait too long yeah yeah i mean another thing about hunting is that for every animal you get you probably don't get you know nine or ten that that this
turned the wrong way when you were drawn back or went way behind a tree or you never had a clean shot or whatever it is. And so, um, every time you can see a moment coming, you know, your heart really starts beating and you have to like breathe through it. I can almost, you know, you almost feel the nervousness of it. And then, uh,
And then you just try to stay calm, you know, like whatever you do, just try to stay calm. Wait for it to come up, draw back. You've practiced shooting a lot. So you have like kind of a technique. Like I'm going to go back, touch my face, draw my elbow tight. And then the arrow is going to let loose.
It's a muscle memory.
It's kind of muscle memory. You have a little trigger, like draw that elbow tight. And then, and then, uh, Then it happens, and then you just watch the arrow and see where it goes. Now, with the animal, you try to do it ethically. That is, make as good of a shot as you can. Make sure it is either hit in the heart or both lungs.
And when that happens, it's a pretty quick death, which is, death is a part of life. But honestly, for a wild animal, that's probably the best way to go they could have. Now, when an animal's kind of walking towards you, if it's walking towards you, but not directly towards you, that's what you call quartering towards you.
You can picture it's actually pretty difficult to hit both lungs because the shoulder blade and all that bone is in the way. So you have to make a perfect shot to get them both. And to be honest, when I took my shot, I was a couple inches or a few inches right. And so it went through the first lung and then it sunk the arrow all the way into the moose.
But it allowed that second lung to stay breathing, which meant the moose stayed alive longer. What's your relationship –
With the animal in a situation like that. You said death is a part of life.
Yeah, that's an interesting thought because no matter what your relationship to...
however you choose to go through life whether you know whatever you eat whatever you do um death is a part of life you know like every animal that's out there is living off of a dead even plants you know it's all it's all we're all part of this ecosystem i think it's really easy in a particularly in an urban environment but anywhere to think that we're separate from the ecosystem but we are very much a part of it um whether it be you know farming requires you know
all this habitat to be turned into growing soybeans and when you get the plows and the combines, you know, you're losing all kinds of different animals and all kinds of potential habitat. So it's not cost-free. And so when you realize that, then you want to produce the food and the things you need, uh, in an ethical manner. So I, uh, so for me hunting, uh, plays a really major role in that.
Like I literally know how many animals a year it takes to feed my family and myself. I actually know the exact number and it's like, and I know what the cost of that is. And I'm aware of it because I'm out in the woods and I see these like beautiful elk and moose. And I really love the species, love the animals. But there is a fact that
one of those individuals you know is going to have to feed me and i and particularly like on alone it was very heightened that experience so i shot that one animal and i was so so thankful you know that i wanted to give that big guy a hug and like hey sorry it was you but yeah had to be somebody there's that there's that picture you just almost hugging it
and you you can also think about it the the calories the the protein the fat all of that that that comes from that that will feed you right you're so grateful for it like that the gratitude is is like you know definitely there what about the bow and arrow perspective well when you hunt with a bow you just get so much more up close to the animals you know you you can't just get it from 600 yards away you actually have to sneak in within 30 or so yards and uh
You're like, no.
But at the same time, that's the only time when you, like, really have those interactions with the animals where you got this –
bugling bull, you know, like tearing at the trees right in front of you and other cow, elk and animals running around, you know, you get, you get, you end up having really, uh, I don't know, dare I say intimate experiences with the animal just because, because you're in it, you're kind of in its world, you're playing its game.
It has its senses to defend itself and you have your wit to try to, to get over those. And it really becomes, uh, you know, it's not easy. They're not, it becomes kind of that chess game. And those prey animals are always tuned in. It's, you know, slightest stick. They're looking for wolves or for whatever it is. So there's something really pure and fun about it.
You know, I will say there is an aspect that is fun. There's no denying it. It's like how we're, you know, people have been hunting forever. And I think it speaks to that part of us somehow. And I think bow hunting is probably the most pure form of it and that you get those experiences more often than with...
rifle so i i don't know i i enjoy it a lot and and the way they do regulations and such um kind of the best times to hunt are usually allowed for bow because they're trying to you know keep it fair for the animal and such so so the distance the close distance makes you more in touch with a sort of uh
the natural way of the predator and prey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're one of the predators where you have to be clever, you have to be quiet, you have to be calm, you have to, all of that. Yep. And the full challenge and the luck involved in catching it.
The same thing as the predators do. Exactly. How many times do they snap a stick and watch them run off and be like, darn, my stock was failed. Or, you know, so, yeah, you're just, you're in that situation. in that ecosystem how'd you learn to to shoot the bow yeah I was I didn't grow up hunting I grew up in uh area that a lot of people hunted, but my dad wasn't really into it.
And so I never got into it until I lived in Russia with the natives. It was just such a part of everything we did and a part of our life that when I came back, I got a bow and I started doing archery in Virginia. It was a pretty easy way to hunt because the deer were overpopulated and you could get these urban archery permits. So you had to go out and
You know, every couple of days you'd have an opportunity to shoot a deer that they needed population control. And so there were a lot of them and it gave you a lot of opportunities to learn quickly. So that's what got me into it. And then I found I really enjoyed it. Do you practice with the target also or just practice out? Oh, no, I would definitely practice with a target a lot.
Again, you kind of have an obligation to do your best because you don't want to be flinging arrows into the leg of an animal. And it's a cool way, honestly, to provide quality meat for the family. It's all raised naturally and wild and free until you bring it home into the freezer.
So if we step back, what are the 10 items you brought? And what's actually the challenge of figuring out which items to bring?
Yeah, the challenge is that you don't exactly know what your site's opportunities are going to be. So you don't really know, should I bring a fishing net? Am I going to even have a spot to net or not? And things like that. I brought an axe, a saw, a Leatherman wave. A ferro rod, it's like a, makes sparks to start a fire.
A frying pan, a sleeping bag, a fishing kit, a bow and arrow, trapping wire, and paracord. And so those are my 10 items. Any regrets, any... No major regrets. I, I took, I took the saw kind of, I thought it would be more of a calorie saver than I, I didn't really need it.
I, in hindsight, if I was doing, you know, season seven instead of six and got to watch, I would have taken the, the net because I, I just planned to make a net, but I would have rather just had two nets, brought one and left the saw because in the Northern woods in particular, every tree is, you know,
the size of your arm or leg you can chop it down with an axe and a couple swings yeah yeah you don't really need the saw um and so it was handy at times and useful but i think it was my if i had to do nine items i would have been just fine without the saw so two nets would just expand your uh food gathering potential yeah
And then in terms of trapping, you were okay with just the little you brought?
The snare wire was good. I ran some, you know, I put out, I used all my snare wire. I ran trap line, which is just a series of traps through the woods and brush every place you see sign. Put a snare, put a little mark on the tree so I knew where that snare was and just make these paths through the woods. And I put out, you know, I don't know how many, 150, 200 snares.
every day i'd get a rabbit or two out of them and then i had a lot of rabbits but uh once i got the moose i actually took all those snares down because i didn't want to catch anything needlessly and oh you come to find out you can't live off of rabbits man cannot live off rabbit alone as it turns out so you set up a huge number of traps you were also fishing and then always on the lookout for uh moose
Yeah. So like what, what's in terms of survival, if you were to do it over again, over and over and over and over, like how do you, um, maximize your chance of having enough food to survive for a long time?
You have to be, you have to be really adaptable because everything's gonna, it's always going to look different in your situation, your location. I actually had a, what I thought was a pretty good plan going into alone. And then it just, the, you know, the location didn't allow for what I thought it would. What was the plan?
Well, I thought I would just catch a bunch of fish because I'm on a really good fishing lake. I'd catch a whole bunch of fish and let them rot for a little while and then just drag them all through the woods into a big pile and then hunt a bear on that big fish pile. That was the plan. And I thought, but when I got there, for one, I had a hard time catching fish off the bat.
They didn't come like I was hoping. And then for two, For two, it had burned prior, so there were no berries. And so there were very few berries, which meant there weren't grouse, there weren't bear. They had all gone to other places where the berries were. And so what I had grown accustomed to growing
kind of relying on in Siberia wasn't there, there, you know, so in, in Russia, which was a similar environment, it was just grouse and berries and fish and grouse and berries and fish. And then occasionally, you know, you get a moose or something, but I had to reassess, which was part of me being grumpy at the start, like, oh, this place sucks.
And then, and then once I reassessed and, and, and, you know, right away I saw that there were moose tracks and such. So, I just started to plan for that. I moved my camp into an area that was as removed as I could be from where all the action is, where the tracks were, so that I wasn't disturbing animal patterns. I made sure the predominant wind was blowing out my scent to the water.
And then really, to be honest, if you want to actually survive somewhere, it's different than alone. But you do have to... be active and it has to, you're going to have to, you're not going to live, you're not going to be sustainable by, you know, starving it out. You'd have to unlock the key that is sustainability.
And I think there's a lot of areas that still have that potential, but you have to figure out what it is. It's usually going to be a combination of fishing, you know, trapping and then hunting. And then once you have some, the fishing and trapping will get you until you have some success hunting. And then that'll buy you three or four months of time
to continue and you know to keep hunting again and you just have to roll off of that but every you know depends on where you are what opportunities are there so okay so that's the process fishing and trapping until you're successful hunting and then the successful hunt buys you some more time right right just go year and then you just go around like that and that's how People did it forever.
The pressure, I noticed that, you know, you got that moose and then you're happy for a week or so. And then you start to be like, you know, this is finite. I'm going to have to do this again. And you imagine if you had a family that was going to starve if you weren't successful, you know, this next time.
And there's just always that pressure, you know, it made me really like appreciate the amount of what people had to deal with.
Well, in terms of being active, like, so you have to do stuff all day, right?
so you get up so you get up and planning like what am i gonna in the in the midst of the frustration you have to figure out like what's what's the strategy like how do you put up all the traps what is that a decision like you know most people like sit at their desk and have like a calendar are you like figuring out like one thing about wilderness life in general is it's
remarkably less scheduled than anything we deal with schedules are fairly unique to of a modern context so you'd wake up and you just sort of you have a you know confluence of things you want to do things you need to do things you should do and you just kind of tackle them as you see fit as it flows in you know so and that's actually one of the things that your people really that i really appreciate about that lifestyle is it really is
you're kind of in that flow and so i'd wake up and be like maybe i'll go fishing and then i'll wonder over and fish and then i'd be like i'm gonna go check the trap line add every day if i add five or ten snares you know you're constantly adding to your productive potential and then uh but nothing's really scheduled you're just kind of flying by the seat of your pants but then there's a lot of
instinct that's already loaded in. Like you already, just like wisdom from all the times you've had to do it before. You're just actually operating a lot on instinct. Like you said, where to place the shelter. Like how hard is that calculation, where to place the shelter?
If you're like dropped off and this is all new to you, of course, all those things are going to be things you have to really think through and plan. When you're thinking about a shelter, you have to think of, oh, here's a nice flat spot. You know, that's a good place. But also, is there firewood nearby?
And if I'm going to be here for months, is there enough firewood that I'm not going to be walking a half a mile to get a dry piece of wood? Is the water nearby? Is it somewhat open but also protected from the elements? Because sometimes you get a beautiful spot. It's great on a calm day and then the wind comes like...
And so there's all these factors, you know, even down to taking in what game is doing in the area also and how that relates to where your shelter is.
You said you have to consider where the action will be and you want to be away from the action but close enough to it. To see it.
Yeah, you want to be... Yeah, right. And so...
uh ideally you know it depends you're always going to make give and takes and one thing with shelters and location selection and stuff that's another thing you just have to trust your ability to adapt in the situation because everybody has a particular you know you got an idea of a shelter you're going to build but then you get there and maybe there's a good cliff that you can incorporate you know or maybe and then you just become creative and that's a really fun process too to just allow your creativity to try to flourish in that what kind of shelters are there
there's all kinds of philosophies and shelters which is fun uh people it's fun to see people try different things mine was fairly basic for the simple reason that i'd lived you know winters through winters in siberia in a teepee so i knew i didn't need like anything too robust as long as i had calories i'd be warm and i wasn't particularly worried about the cold um
But you'll see, so I kept my shelter really pretty simple with the idea that I built a simple A-frame type shelter. And then most of my energy is gonna be focused on getting calories. And then of course, there's always gonna be downtime. And in that downtime, I can tweak, modify, improve my shelter.
And that'll just be a constant process that by the time you're there a few months, you'll have all the kinks worked out. It'll be a really nice little setup, but you don't have to start with that necessarily, because you got other needs you got to focus on.
That said, you'll see a lot of people on a loan that really focus on building a log cabin because they want to be secure or incorporating whatever the earth has around, whether it be rocks or whether it be digging a hole. And we've seen some really cool shelters. And I... I'm not going to knock it. Everybody's got different strokes for different folks.
But my particular idea was to keep it fairly simple, improve it with time, but spend most of my energy. You know, the shelter you really need to think about, it can't be smoky because that'll be miserable. But it is nice to have a fire inside. So you need to have a fire inside that's not going to be dangerous and smoke-free.
And then also airtight because you're never going to have a warm shelter out there because you don't have seals and things like that. But as long as the air is not moving through it, you can have a warm enough shelter. With a fire. With a fire and dryer socks and stuff. Yeah. How do you get the smoke out of the shelter?
If you have good clay and mud and rock, you can build yourself a fireplace, which is surprisingly not that hard. Oh, really? Yeah, it's a fun thing to do. It works well. Take a little hole, start stacking rocks around it, make sure it's opening.
and it actually works you know um so that's not as hard as you might think um for me where i was i i kind of came up with it as i was there with my a-frame you know i hadn't built an a-frame shelter like that before and so when i built it and then i had put a bunch of tin cans in the ground so that air would get the fire so it was fed by air which helps create a draft um but
But I realized in an A-frame, the smoke doesn't go out very well. Even if you leave a hole at the top, it collects and billows back down. So then I cut some of my tarp and made this and cut a hole in the A-frame. And then I made like a hood vent that I could pull down and catch the smoke with. And so while the fire was going, it would just billow out the hood vent. And then when it was...
Done burning and it was just hot coals. I could close it, seal it up and keep the heat in. So it actually worked pretty well.
So start with something that kind of works and then keep improving.
Yeah, exactly.
I was wondering, I mean, the log cabin, it feels like that's a thing that takes a huge amount of work before it works.
the difference between a log cabin and a warm log cabin is like an immense amount of work and all the chinking and all the door sealing and you know, the chimney has to be anyway. So otherwise it's just going to be the same ambient temperature as outside. So, uh, I don't think alone's the proper context for a log cabin.
I think like a log cabin is great in as a hunting cabin as you know, if you're going to have something for years, but in a, three, six month scenario, I don't know that it's worth the calorie expenditure.
And it is a lot of calories. But that's an interesting sort of metaphor of just like get something that works. You see a lot of this with companies, like successful companies, they get a prototype, get a system that's working and improve fast in response to the conditions, to the environment.
Yeah, because it's constantly changing.
And you end up being a lot better if you're able to learn how to respond quickly versus having a big plan that takes a huge amount of time to accomplish. Right, and forcing that through the pipeline, whether or not it fits. Can you just speak to the place you were, the Canadian Arctic? It looked cold.
Yeah, we were right near the Arctic Circle. I don't know, it was like... 60 kilometers south of the Arctic Circle, so... It was, it's a really cool area, really remote, thousands of little lakes. You know, when you fly over, you're just like, man, it's incredible. There must be so many of those lakes that people haven't been to. You know, it really was a neat area, really remote.
And for the show's purpose, I think it was perfect because it did have enough game and enough different avenues forward that I think it really did reward activity. So I think, uh, but it's a special place. It was, uh, Dene, there's a tribe that live there, the Dene people, which interestingly enough, here's a side note.
When I was in Siberia, I floated down this river called the Padkamanayatunguska, and you get to this village called Sulamai, and there's these Ket people they're called, and there's only 600 of them left. But it is in the middle of Siberia, not in like the Pacific coast, but their language is related to the Dene people. And so somehow, you know, that connection was there thousands of years ago.
Super interesting.
Yeah. So language travels somehow. Yeah.
Right. And the remnant stayed back there. It's very interesting to think through history.
Yeah. Within languages contains a history of a people's and it's interesting how that evolves over time and how wars tell the story. Like language tells the story of conflict and conflict shapes language and we get the result of that. Right.
So fascinating.
and the barriers that language creates is also the thing that leads to wars and misunderstandings and all this kind of stuff. It's a fascinating tension. Uh, but it got cold there, right? It got real cold.
Yeah. I mean, I think, I don't know what the, I didn't have a thermometer, but I imagine it probably got to negative 30 at the most, you know, like it might've gotten, it would have definitely gotten colder had we stayed longer, but, uh, To be honest, I never felt cold out there. I had that one pretty dialed in. Once you have calories, you can stay warm. You can stay active. You got to dress warm.
There's a good one. If you're in the cold, never let yourself get too cold because what happens is you'll stop feeling what's cold and then frostbite and then issues. Then it's really hard to warm back up. It was so annoying. I'd be out going to ice fish or something, and then I would just notice that my feet are cold, and you're just like, ah, dang it.
I just turn around, go back, start a fire, dry my boots out, make sure my feet are warm, and then go again. I wouldn't ignore that. Oh, so you want to be able to feel the cold. Yeah, you want to make sure you're still feeling things and that you're not toughing through it, because you can't really tough through the cold. It'll just get you.
What's your relationship with the cold, psychologically, physically? It's interesting. Actually, there's some part of it that really makes you feel alive. I imagine sometime in Austin here, you go out and it's hot and sweaty. You get that kind of saps you. There's something about that brisk cold that hits your face that you're like, wakes you up, makes you feel really alive, engaged.
It feels like the margins of air are smaller, so you're alert and engaged a little more. There is something that's a little bit...
life-giving just because you feel on an edge you're walking you're on this edge but you have to be alert because even you know some of the natives i lived with the lady had face issues because she let her head get cold when they're on a snowmobile hat was up too high you know that little mistake and then it just freezes this part of your forehead and then the nerves go and then
You got issues when just that wasn't high enough. So you kind of got to be dialed in on stuff.
Well, there's a psychological element to just, I mean, it's unpleasant. If I were to think of what kind of unpleasant would I choose, you know, fasting for long periods of time, going without food in a warm environment is way more pleasant.
then uh being fed in a cold yeah exactly like if you were to choose i choose the opposite oh yeah okay there you go i wonder if that's i wonder if you're born with that or if that's developed maybe your time in siberia like you or or do you gravitate towards i wonder what that is because i really don't like survival in the cold i think a little bit of it is learned he like almost learned not you learn not to fear it you learn to kind of appreciate it
And a big part of that is, I mean, to be honest, it's like dressing warm, being in good. It's not that, you know, there's no secrets to that as you just can't beat the cold. So you just need to dress warm, the native, you know, all that fur, all that stuff.
And then all of a sudden you have your little refuge, have a nice warm fire going in your teepee, you know, and then I bet you, you could learn to appreciate it.
Yeah. I think some of it is just opening yourself up to the possibility that there's something enjoyable about it. Like, Here, I run in Austin all the time in 100-degree heat, and I go out there with a smile on my face and learn to enjoy it. Oh, yeah. I look kind of like you do in the cold. I don't think I enjoy the heat, but you just allow yourself to enjoy it.
100%.
I mean, you're right. It does make you feel alive. Maybe that's the thing that I struggle with is the time passes slower because it does make you feel alive. You get to feel time. but then the flip side of that is you get to feel every moment and you get to feel alive in every moment. So it's, it's both scary when you're inexperienced and, and beautiful when you are experienced.
Were there times when you got hungry?
I got shot a rabbit on day one and I snared a couple rabbits on day two and then more and more as the time went. So I actually did pretty well on the food front. Uh, other thing is when you have all those berries around and stuff you do have an ability to like fill your stomach and so you don't really notice if you're getting thinner or if you're losing weight um
So I can say on alone, I was not that hungry. I've definitely been really hungry in Russia. There were times when I lost a lot of weight. I mean, I lost a lot more weight in Siberia than I did on alone.
Oh, wow. Okay, we'll have to talk about it. So you caught a fish. You caught a couple.
I think I caught like 13 or so. They didn't show a lot of them.
You caught 13 fish?
13 of those big fish. I caught a couple that were small.
This is like a meme at this point. You're a perfect example of a person who was thriving.
I was thought, you know, in the... In hindsight, again, when I was out there, I never let myself think you might win. I just was going to be out there as long as I could and tried to remain pessimistic about it. But then I remember a thought that I was like, I wonder if they're going to be able to make this look hard. I did have that thought at one point. Yeah. Cause it went pretty well.
And I was definitely, it was, it was hard psychologically because I didn't know when it was going to end. Like I thought this could go, you know, like I said, six months, it could go eight months, a year.
And then you start to cause, you know, I had a two and a three year old and you start to weigh in the, is it worth it if it goes a year and it's not worth it if it goes eight months and I still lose. So I feel like I had this pressure and it was psychologically difficult for that reason. Physically, it wasn't too bad.
This is off mic. We're talking about Gordon Ryan competing in jujitsu. And maybe that's the challenge he also has to face is to make things look hard. Because he's so dominant in the sport that in terms of the drama and the entertainment of the sport, and in this case of survival, it has to be difficult.
You know, and I'll add that for sure, though, that it's, it's the woods it's nature you never know how it's gonna go you know what i mean it's like every time you're out there it's a different scenario so yeah whatever hallelujah it went well so you uh you won after 77 days how long do you think you could have lasted When I left, I weighed what I do right now. So I just weighed my normal weight.
I had, you know, a couple hundred pounds of moose. I had at least, you know, a hundred pounds of fish. I had, you know, a pile of rabbits, a wolverine. You know, I had all this stuff and I know I hadn't gotten cold yet. I just thought, But in my head, I thought if I get to day 130 or 140, even if someone else has big game, I had a pretty good idea they might quit.
Because it would be long, cold, dark days. And how miserable is that? It's so boring. It's freezing. And so I thought... the only time I thought I could think about winning is when I got to day 130 or 40. And I definitely had that, um, with what I had, uh,
now maybe i would have got you know i probably would have gotten more i had caught that big 20 something pound pike on the last day i was there maybe catch some more of those you know i don't you know and i don't know like i don't know how many calories i had stored but i had a lot and so how long would that have lasted me assuming i didn't get anything else it definitely would have i would definitely would have reached my goal of 130 or 40 days
And then after that, I thought we were just going to push into the, you know, then it's just to see how much, who has what reserves and we'll go as far as we can. And that would get me through January into February. And I just thought, man, that's going to be miserable for people. And you were like, I can last. And I knew I could do it. What aspect of that is miserable?
The hardest thing for me would have been the boredom because it's hard to stay busy when it's all dark out, when the ice is, you know. three, four foot thick. You can't fish. And, um, I just think, I think it would have just been really boring. He would have had to been a real Zen master to push through it, but because I had experienced it to some degree, I knew I could.
And then I think things that might, you know, you start thinking about family and this and that in those situations. And I just knew that those, because I'd gone to all these trips to Russia for a year at a time, the time context was a little broader for me than I think for some people. Cause I,
I knew I could be gone for a year and come back, catch up with my loved ones, bring what I got back, whether that be psychological or whatever it is, and we'd all enrich each other. And once it's in hindsight, that year would have been like that, talking about it. So I had that perspective. So I knew I wasn't going to tap for any other reason other than running out of food someday.
So that was my stressor.
So you're able to, given the boredom, given the loneliness, kind of zoom out.
and accept the passing of time just let it pass you know for me i'm gonna act fairly act i like to be active and so i would try to think of creative ways to keep my brain busy you know we saw the like dumb rabbit first skit but then i did a whole bunch of like elaborate normandy reinvasion you know there was like a there was a
Every day I would think, I got to think of something to make me laugh, you know, and then do some stupid skit. And then that would be, that would fill a couple hours of my time. And then I'd spend an hour to a couple, few hours fishing. And then you spend a few hours, you know, whatever you're doing. Would you do that without a camera? Yeah. Oh, no, the skits. Funny question.
That's a good question. I don't know. I actually don't know. I will say that was one of the advantages of being on the show versus in Siberia. So no, because I didn't in Siberia just do skits by myself. But I didn't film it. And so... It was quite nice to have this camera that made you feel like you weren't quite as alone as if you were just in the woods by yourself.
And I think for me, I was able to, it was a pain. It was part of the cause of me missing that moose. You know, there's issues with it, but I just chose to look at it as like, this is an awesome opportunity to share with people a part of me that most people don't get to see. So that was, I just chose to look at it that way. And it was an advantage because you could do stuff like that.
I think there's actual power to doing this kind of documenting, like talking to a camera or an audio recorder. That's an actual tool in survival. I had a little bit of an experience of being out alone in the jungle and just being able to talk to a thing is much less lonely.
It is. It really is. That can be a powerful tool, just sharing your experience. I had the, I definitely had the thought. So going back to your earlier comment, but I definitely had the thought if I knew I was the last person on earth, I wouldn't even bother. Like I wouldn't do that. Like I would just probably not, I'd just give up, I'm sure.
Because even if I had a bunch of food and this and that, but because I knew you're, you know, you're a part of,
you're sharing it gives you a lot of strength to go through and and having that camera just as it makes it that much more vivid because you know you're not just going to be sharing a vague memory but an actual experience i think if you're the last person on earth you would actually convince yourself first of all you don't know for sure there's always going to be hope dies last yeah
Hope really does die. You really don't know. You really hope to find. I mean, if an apocalypse happens, I think your whole life will be coming about finding the other person.
It would be. And there's a chance. I mean, I guess I'm saying if you knew you were for some reason knew you were the last. I wonder if you would. I wonder if that was a thought I had if I knew I was the last person. Because here I was having a good time, having fun fishing, plenty of food. But if I knew I was the last person on earth, I don't know that I would even bother.
But now if that was for real, would I bother? That's the question.
No, no. I think if you knew, if some way you knew for sure, I think your mind will start doubting it. That whoever told you you're the last person, whatever was lying.
Right, right. The power of hope might be more stronger than I accounted for in that situation.
Also, you might, if you are indeed the last person, you might want to be documenting it. for once you die, an alien species comes about. Because whatever happened on Earth is a pretty special thing, and if you're the last one, you might be the last person to tell the story of what happened. And so that's gonna be a way to convince yourself that this is important.
And so the days will go by like this, but it will be lonely. Boy, would that be lonely.
It would be. Wow. Maybe delving into the dredges, the depths of something.
Yeah, I mean, there is going to be existential dread. But also, I don't know, I think hope will burn bright. You'll be looking for other humans.
That's, you know, one of the reasons I was looking forward to talking to you, things I appreciate about you, is you're always, not out of naivety, but you always choose to look at the positive. You know what I mean? And I think that's a... a powerful mindset to have. I appreciate it.
Yeah. That'd be a pretty cool survival situation though, if you're the last person on earth. If you could share it. If you could share it. Yeah. Like I said, many people consider you the most successful competitor on a loan. The other successful one is Roland Welker, Rockhouse guy.
Oh yeah.
This is just a fun, ridiculous question, but head to head, who do you think survives longer?
If you want to get rid of the competitive side of it, I would just say I'm pretty dang sure I had more pounds of food. And I didn't have the advantage of knowing when it would end, which I think would have been a great psychological. It would have made it really easy. Once I got the moose, I could have shot the moose and just not stressed.
That would have been like a... And so that was a big difference between the seasons that I felt like I mean, I felt like the psychology of season seven, they kind of messed up by doing a hundred day cap because for my own experience, that was the hardest part.
But Roland's a beast. So for people who don't know, they put a hundred day cap on. So it's whoever can survive a hundred days for that season. It's interesting to hear that for you, the uncertainty, not knowing when it ends.
That was for sure.
It's the hardest. That's true. It's like you wake up every day.
I didn't know how to ration my food. I didn't know if I was going to lose after six months and then it was all going to be for naught. I didn't know if it, you know, I just, there's so many unknowns. You don't know, like I said, if I shot a moose and it was 100 days, done. If I shot a moose and you don't know, it's like, crap, I could still lose to somebody else.
But it's going to be way in the future. Yeah. So anyway, that for me was definitely the hard part.
And when you found out that you won and your wife was there, it was funny because you're really happy. There's great sort of moment of you reuniting, but also there's a state of shock of like, you look like you were ready to go much longer.
That was the most genuine shock I could have. I hadn't even like entertained the thought yet. I didn't even think it was, you'd hear the helicopters, And I just assumed there was other people out there. I just hadn't... I thought... You know, and for one, the previous person that had gone the longest had gone 89 days.
So I just knew whoever else was out here with me, somebody's got that in their crosshairs. They're going to get to 90. And they're not going to quit at 90. They're going to go to 100. You know, I just figured we can't start thinking about the end until a couple months from when it ended. So I was just... shocked. And they tricked me pretty good.
They know how to make you think you're not, you know, that you're not. So they want you to do the surprise. Yeah, they want it to be a surprise. You really weren't. I mean, you have to do that, I guess, for survival. Don't be counting the days. No, I think that would be, then, you know, you see that on some of the people do that.
For myself, that would be bad psychology because then you're just always disappointing yourself. You have to be resettled with the fact that this is going to go a long time and suck. Once you come to peace with that, maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised, but you're not gonna be constantly disappointed.
So what was your diet like? What was your eating habits like during that time? How many meals a day?
I was trying to eat the thing. The more the moose is hanging out there, the more the critters, every critter in the forest is trying to peck at it or mice trying to eat it and stuff. So one of the ways you can protect the food is by eating it.
So I was having three good meals a day and then I'd like cook up some meat and go to sleep and then wake up in the middle of night because they're long nights and like have some meat at night, eat a bunch at night.
So I'd usually have a fish stew for lunch and then mousse for breakfast and dinner and then have some for a nighttime snack because the nights were long so you'd be in bed like 14 hours and
wake up and eat and dink around and go back to sleep is it okay that i was pretty low carb situation yeah i actually felt really good i tried to i tried to i think i would have felt better if i would have had a higher percentage of fat because you know it's still over more protein than if you're on a keto diet you want a lot of fat and so i didn't i didn't try to mix in like nature's carbs different like reindeer lichen and things like that but
Honestly, I felt pretty good on that diet, I will say.
How did you... What's the secret to, like, protecting food? What are the different ways to protect food?
Yeah, a lot of times, you know, in a typical situation in the woods hunting, you'll raise it up in a tree in a bag, put it in, like, a game bag so the birds can't peck at it, and hang it in a tree so that...
cools you got to make sure first to cool it because it'll spoil so you cool it by whatever means necessary hanging it in a cool place letting the air blow around it um and then you'll notice that every forest freeloader in the woods is going to come steal your food yeah and it was just fun i mean it was it was crazy to watch you know like it's all the jay all the camp jays pecking at it or everything i did you know was
was there was something that could get to it. If put on the ground, the mice get on and they poop on it and they kind of mess it up. So I ultimately kind of just dawned on me, shoot, I'm going to have to build one of those Venky like food caches. So I did and I put it up there and I thought I kind of solved my problem.
to be honest the venky then so they would have taken a page out of like they would have mixed me in roland's solution they build this tall stilt shelter and then put a box on the top that's enclosed and then the bears can't get to it the mice can't poop on it the birds the wolverine you know it's safe and i never finished it in hindsight i don't actually know why i think i was just
the way it timed like i didn't think something was going to be up there then it did and then i you know you're like counting calories and stuff i should have in hindsight just boxed it in right away but to get ready for the long for the long haul yeah yeah yeah is a rabbit starvation a real thing yeah so you can't just live off protein and rabbits are almost just protein i'd kill a rabbit eat the innards and the brain and the eyes and then everything else is just protein and so uh it takes more calories to
you know, process that protein than you're getting from it without the fat. So you actually lose, I lost, I had, you know, a lot of rabbits in the first 20 days I had 28 rabbits or something, but I was losing weight at exactly the same speed as everybody else that didn't have anything. So that's interesting. Yeah. And I'd never tried that before.
So I was wondering if I'm catching a ton of rabbits. I wonder if I can last what, six months on rabbits, but no, you just starve as fast as everybody else. And so I had to kind of learn that on the fly and adjust. I wonder what to make of that. So you need fat to survive, like fundamentally. Yeah, that's the, yeah.
And you'll notice when the wolverine came or when animals came, they would eat the skin off of the fish. They would eat the eyes. You know, they'd steal the moose fat. They'd leave all the meat. Yeah, like behind the eyes is a bunch of fat. So yeah, you can kind of observe nature and see what they're eating and know where the gold is.
What do you like eating when you're like, when you can eat whatever you want? What do you feel best eating? What do I feel best? I just try to eat clean, I think. I'm not like super strict or anything, but I think when I eat less carbs, I feel better. Meat and vegetables. I like, we eat a lot of, you know, I eat a lot of meat. So basically everything you ate on loan plus some veggies.
Plus veggies. I'll throw in some buckwheat. I like buckwheat. Nice.
Let's step to the... the early days of jordan so uh your uh instagram handle is hobo jordo so early on in your life you uh hoboed around the u.s on freight trains what's the story behind that my brother when he was 17 or so he just decided to go hitchhiking and he hitchhiked down to reno from idaho everywhere and uh
ended up loving traveling, but hated being dependent on other people. So he ended up jumping on a freight train and, and just did it. He honestly, he pretty much got on a train and traveled the country for the next eight years on trains, lived in the streets and everywhere. But, uh, you know, he was sober. So it gives you a different experience than a lot.
But at one point when I was, I guess, yeah, 18, he invited me to come along with him. He'd probably been doing it five or so, four or five years. And, uh, Or more. And I said, sure. So I quit my job and went out with them. Hobo Jordan is a bit of an overstep.
I feel self-conscious about that because I rode, I rode trains across the country, up and down the coast, back, you know, spent the better part of the year running around, riding trains and all the staying in places related to that. But All the people, the real hobos, those guys are out there doing it for years on end.