Lex Fridman Podcast
#474 – DHH: Future of Programming, AI, Ruby on Rails, Productivity & Parenting
12 Jul 2025
David Heinemeier Hansson (aka DHH) is a legendary programmer, creator of Ruby on Rails, co-owner & CTO of 37signals that created Basecamp, HEY, & ONCE, and is a NYT-best-selling author (with Jason Fried) of 4 books: REWORK, REMOTE, Getting Real, and It Doesn't Have To Be Crazy At Work. He is also a race car driver, including a class-winning performance at the 24 hour Le Mans race. Thank you for listening ❤ Check out our sponsors: https://lexfridman.com/sponsors/ep474-sc See below for timestamps, transcript, and to give feedback, submit questions, contact Lex, etc. Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/dhh-david-heinemeier-hansson-transcript CONTACT LEX: Feedback - give feedback to Lex: https://lexfridman.com/survey AMA - submit questions, videos or call-in: https://lexfridman.com/ama Hiring - join our team: https://lexfridman.com/hiring Other - other ways to get in touch: https://lexfridman.com/contact EPISODE LINKS: DHH's X: https://x.com/dhh DHH's Website: https://dhh.dk/ Ruby on Rails: https://rubyonrails.org/ 37signals: https://37signals.com/ DHH's books: Rework: https://amzn.to/44rSKob Remote: https://amzn.to/44GFJ91 It Doesn't Have to Be Crazy at Work: https://amzn.to/46bzuwx Getting Real: https://amzn.to/4kzoMDg SPONSORS: To support this podcast, check out our sponsors & get discounts: UPLIFT Desk: Standing desks and office ergonomics. Go to https://upliftdesk.com/lex Lindy: No-code AI agent builder. Go to https://go.lindy.ai/lex LMNT: Zero-sugar electrolyte drink mix. Go to https://drinkLMNT.com/lex Shopify: Sell stuff online. Go to https://shopify.com/lex NetSuite: Business management software. Go to http://netsuite.com/lex OUTLINE: (00:00) - Introduction (00:58) - Sponsors, Comments, and Reflections (08:48) - Programming - early days (26:13) - JavaScript (36:32) - Google Chrome and DOJ (44:19) - Ruby programming language (51:30) - Beautiful code (1:09:31) - Metaprogramming (1:12:52) - Dynamic typing (1:20:10) - Scaling (1:33:03) - Future of programming (1:50:34) - Future of AI (1:56:29) - Vibe coding (2:05:01) - Rails manifesto: Principles of a great programming language (2:29:27) - Why managers are useless (2:38:48) - Small teams (2:44:55) - Jeff Bezos (3:00:13) - Why meetings are toxic (3:07:58) - Case against retirement (3:15:15) - Hard work (3:20:53) - Why we left the cloud (3:24:04) - AWS (3:33:22) - Owning your own servers (3:39:35) - Elon Musk (3:49:17) - Apple (4:01:03) - Tim Sweeney (4:12:37) - Fatherhood (4:38:19) - Racing (5:05:23) - Cars (5:10:41) - Programming setup (5:25:51) - Programming language for beginners (5:39:09) - Open source (5:48:01) - WordPress drama (5:59:18) - Money and happiness (6:08:11) - Hope
Full Episode
The following is a conversation with David Heinemeier Hansen, also known as DHH. He is a legend in the programming and tech world, brilliant and insightful, sometimes controversial, and always fun to talk to. He's the creator of Ruby on Rails, which is an influential web development framework behind many websites used by millions of people, including Shopify, GitHub, and Airbnb.
He is the co-owner and CTO of 37signals that created Basecamp, Hay, and Once. He is a New York Times bestselling author, together with his co-author, Jason Fried, of four books, Rework, Remote, Getting Real, and It Doesn't Have to be Crazy at Work. And on top of that, he's also a race car driver, including being a class winner at the legendary 24-hour Le Mans race.
And now a quick few second mention of a sponsor. Check them out in the description or at lexfriedman.com slash sponsors. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got a couple of new sponsors actually, so please go support them. Uplift Desk for beautiful workspaces. Lindy for building AI agents. Element for hydration. Shopify for selling stuff online. And NetSuite for your business.
Choose wisely, my friends. And now onto the full ad reads. I do try to make them interesting, but if you skip, please still check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff. Maybe you will too. To get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfreeman.com contact. All right, let's go. This episode is brought to you by Uplift Desk.
Like I mentioned, it's a new sponsor, but I've been using them for many, many years. I have six Uplift Desks. So three of them are in the podcast studio. So across many years, I don't know how many years, three, four years, if you see the sort of wood colored desk in the podcast studio on camera, those are Uplift Desks. Once again, have loved them, have used them for many years. I also use it
For the programming setup, I use it for the robotics work I'm doing, and I'm also using it for music when I practice guitar. For programming, I split my time standing and sitting. I think they have some ridiculous amount of possible desk combinations, but I went with the biggest or close to the biggest, mostly because I love horizontal desk space.
Anyway, I can't believe they're sponsoring the podcast. I feel truly fortunate that they are. I feel truly fortunate to be alive. It's just all of this feels like a simulation because I've been using it for so long. The fact that they somehow decided out of nowhere to be sponsoring this podcast is like, what? is happening.
Anyway, go to upliftdesk.com slash Lex and use code Lex to get four free accessories, free same-day shipping, free returns, a 15-year warranty, and an extra discount off your entire order. That's U-P-L-I-F-T-D-E-S-K dot com slash Lex. This episode is also brought to you by Lindy. It's a platform that helps you build multiple AI agents in minutes. No code. It could do a lot of stuff.
Sales, customer support, recruiting. It could take care of phone calls. It can do a bunch of email automations. Integrates quite incredibly with a huge number of services. All of the Google services. Drive, Gmail, Slack, HubSpot. User-friendly, easy to set up. Let's see, you can do a bunch of other kind of stuff. Meetings, a lot of people talk about using it for meetings, meetings, recording.
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