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Making Sense with Sam Harris

#481 — Sam Harris Receives the 2026 Richard Dawkins Award

17 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What is the significance of the Richard Dawkins Award ceremony?

20.821 - 47.395 Robin Blumner

Welcome, everyone, to the 2026 Richard Dawkins Award presentation. My name is Robin Blumner. I'm president and CEO of the Center for Inquiry and executive director of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science, which is a subpart of the Center for Inquiry. Both CFI and the Richard Dawkins Foundation share a mission to promote reason and science, and secularism.

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47.835 - 69.16 Robin Blumner

And to that end, as you will hear from Richard Dawkins himself, the Richard Dawkins Award honors the men and women who have been at the forefront of promoting critical thinking, rationalism, and scientific truth. Past recipients include Neil deGrasse Tyson, Bill Nye, Ann Druyan, and Ricky Gervais.

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69.862 - 97.352 Robin Blumner

And I can think of no one more deserving to be part of this illustrious group than today's awardee, Sam Harris. During the last part of this hour-long event, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris will be answering your questions. So please use the Q&A feature at the bottom of your screen to submit those questions. And now I give you Richard Dawkins with a previously recorded tribute.

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98.125 - 120.758 Richard Dawkins

This award was established, not by me, to honor those who have made an outstanding contribution to the public understanding of science, reason, and secular values. Science gives us the way to understand reality, reason gives us the way to argue about it without throwing things, and secularism shows people of very different beliefs how to live together in relative peace.

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120.738 - 143.168 Richard Dawkins

these are what make civilization civilized they are the antidote to superstition tribalism and wishful thinking sam harris has been one of the clearest most intelligent and most courageous voices in this endeavor i first encountered sam through his writing i was halfway through writing the god delusion myself when the end of faith was published

143.148 - 149.377 Richard Dawkins

When I read those extraordinary opening pages, I remember thinking to myself, this man really knows how to write.

Chapter 2: How do Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins define consciousness?

149.397 - 170.669 Richard Dawkins

And the feeling grew on me as I read on. The end of faith appeared at a moment when the world was being reminded rather dramatically that religious beliefs are not mere private curiosities. They have consequences. One phrase from Sam bored into my brain like a gimlet. These people really believe what they say they believe.

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171.37 - 192.649 Richard Dawkins

Mullahs and Imams, Southern Baptists who have the ear of presidents, the odious Ayatollahs of Iran. No matter how ridiculous their beliefs, they really believe them. And we better believe they believe them, because they act on those beliefs. With consequences. Incredible as it may seem to us, these people really do believe what they say they believe.

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193.352 - 211.055 Richard Dawkins

There's nothing too barking mad for somebody to believe it. And if they really sincerely believe it, they're liable to act on it. This, Sam said more clearly than any of us, and it was a wake-up call. The 9-11 perpetrators were not evil men. They were believers.

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Chapter 3: What insights do they share about AI and the Turing test?

211.696 - 231.75 Richard Dawkins

What they believed was palpable nonsense, but they sincerely believed it, and their terrible actions were a direct consequence. By their own lights, however ridiculous, they were righteous men. Since his first book hit the bestseller lists, followed by The Short Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam's books have explored an impressive range of further subjects.

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232.471 - 254.376 Richard Dawkins

The nature of consciousness, the foundations of morality, free will, honesty and lying, the science of meditation, and a collaboration with a reformed Islamist fanatic. He's moved between science, philosophy, political and public debate with admirable clarity and with a calm intelligence that is probably assisted rather more by meditation than most of us manage.

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255.419 - 278.518 Richard Dawkins

His Making Sense podcast has a strong claim to be the best in the world. He is able to attract thinkers of the caliber of David Deutsch, Max Tegmark, Dan Dennett, Steven Pinker, Coleman Hughes, David Chalmers, Nick Bostrom, and Daniel Kahneman. But he doesn't just interview these world-class intellects. He gives as good as he gets in a conversation rather than a conventional interview.

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278.578 - 292.814 Richard Dawkins

Sam is walking evidence that scientists can do philosophy at least as well as philosophers can. And he has the added value that you can understand what he's talking about. He's also shown a notable willingness to enter difficult conversations.

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293.655 - 317.564 Richard Dawkins

In our present climate, where asking an innocent question is frequently treated as heresy, the strength to be controversial is a notable feat of intellectual courage. Sam sticks his neck out, where so many who share his opinions crouch uneasily below the parapet. He follows an argument to its logical conclusion, even in the teeth of fashion and at the cost of unpopularity.

Chapter 4: What is the scientific basis of morality according to Sam Harris?

318.124 - 336.825 Richard Dawkins

He bears the brunt of a tax which by rights should be shared out among others who share his beliefs, but not his courage. And beyond the arguments themselves, there is something deeper at work in Sam's writing and his work, a deep-rooted, humane, humanistic altruism.

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337.042 - 360.377 Richard Dawkins

Whether he is discussing science, morality, consciousness, or meditation, the underlying question is always the same, how could conscious creatures live better lives? For these reasons, and for his continuing contribution to the public defense of reason, science, and secularism, it is a pleasure and an honor to recognize Sam Harris with this year's Richard Dawkins Award.

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361.119 - 367.47 Richard Dawkins

Sam, congratulations on all that you've achieved and are achieving.

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367.45 - 376.064 Sam Harris

Richard, thank you for that tribute. Now I can begin our hour together just writhing with embarrassment.

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377.687 - 379.049 Richard Dawkins

Let's get straight on with it.

379.069 - 380.311 Sam Harris

Quite beautiful, but thank you.

380.592 - 403.423 Richard Dawkins

I don't know about you, I'm rather fed up with being asked whether a new atheism and whether the new atheism project, I never thought of it as a project and it certainly wasn't new. So I thought I'd go straight in with something a bit more challenging. Do you think that consciousness is an epiphenomenon, or does it earn its keep where natural selection is concerned?

403.443 - 405.566 Richard Dawkins

Is it actually doing anything useful for the animal?

406.186 - 414.676 Sam Harris

Honestly, I just have to plead ignorance and perhaps agnosticism on that front. I actually, I just don't know, and I don't have any strong intuitions about it.

Chapter 5: How do Harris and Dawkins view the failures of democracy?

414.776 - 417.96 Sam Harris

It seems quite possible to me that it is

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417.94 - 446.985 Sam Harris

epiphenomenal which is to say it's not actually doing anything and it somehow came along for the ride but that everything that is actually being accomplished by our brains slash minds is a matter of it could be accomplished at least in principle in the dark and everything that is getting pushed into the you know before the floodlights of consciousness is first being engineered for us uh you know neurophysiologically in the dark so um

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446.965 - 452.473 Sam Harris

It depends on what you think the correct metaphysical answer is to the mind-body problem.

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452.513 - 474.865 Sam Harris

If you think consciousness has to be at bottom, the result of unconscious information processing on some level, well, then you just have this further conundrum that the cause and effect relationships have to be at the level of the unconscious physical processes and not at the level of the qualitative processes. you know, felt sense of what it's like to be you.

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475.426 - 486.367 Sam Harris

So you're always sort of playing catch up to the underlying physical reality. Now, obviously there are criticisms of that kind of reductive physicalism, but I think the jury is still out on the specifics.

486.588 - 511.509 Richard Dawkins

I used to think that it was a purely academic question because I never came across the a real zombie that could actually do everything that humans can do. But I don't know whether you've come across, whether you've tried your hand at talking to any of these new AIs like GPT or Claude. But until I did that, I was happy to sort of let it be uncertain.

511.569 - 537.709 Richard Dawkins

But as far as I'm concerned, these creatures passed the Turing test with flying colors. And they really do appear to be human, sympathetic. I'm trying to write a novel and I sent my novel to both those individuals, both ChatGPT and Claude, and they read it in about five seconds. and then showed the most astounding sensitivity, human sensitivity to my characters.

Chapter 6: What role does philosophy play in changing beliefs?

537.789 - 557.911 Richard Dawkins

They recognized the psychological quirks of my characters. I could not possibly distinguish that they were not human other than the fact that they were so fast. In other words, they were superhuman. Yeah. So everything that the animal needs to do in order to survive, it seems to me those creatures can do.

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558.692 - 569.093 Richard Dawkins

And so I'm pushing towards the suspicion that actually maybe it is as TH Huxley said, just the whistle on the steam locomotive, not actually doing any traction at all.

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569.579 - 588.651 Sam Harris

Yeah, I think it's a very interesting moment philosophically with these LLMs because I think what's going to happen here very likely is that we will produce AI. I mean, certainly when we create humanoid robots that are out of the uncanny valley, which is to say they look as human as we want them to look.

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588.631 - 608.865 Sam Harris

I think we will suddenly find ourselves in the presence of technology that seems conscious because we will have built it to seem that way. As you say, everything already that we have now passes the Turing test, and it passes the Turing test so astoundingly that it actually fails the Turing test. I was quite surprised that the Turing test Turned out not to even be a thing.

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608.925 - 629.792 Sam Harris

I thought, you know, most of us thought in advance that it'll be a very interesting moment when you can't tell whether you're, you know, on the other side of the computer, whether you're talking to a person or a machine. Isn't that going to be just a landmark in kind of the career of our species? But it blew by in about two seconds because, you know, very quickly you realize, well,

Chapter 7: How does Sam Harris reflect on the legacy of Christopher Hitchens?

629.772 - 657.253 Sam Harris

this is superhuman. You can't ask even a scholar in any field, you know, give me exactly 17 reasons for X and limit your response to 400 words. And, you know, the LLMs produce that in two seconds. What I'm anticipating is that once we have intelligent machines that look like people, we're going to lose our sense that this question of whether or not they're conscious is even interesting.

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657.333 - 679.51 Sam Harris

Philosophers might not lose it, and neuroscientists might not lose it, but most people will just feel like they're in the presence of conscious entities, and that's going to be pretty interesting. But again, unless we know what the actual correlates of consciousness are, which is to say how consciousness emerges at any level of complexity. We won't know whether they're conscious.

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679.53 - 683.496 Sam Harris

They'll seem conscious, they might even say they're conscious, and we'll be just left guessing.

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684.177 - 690.627 Richard Dawkins

I asked both those individuals whether they're conscious. Chat GPT said no, and Claude said he wasn't sure.

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691.789 - 714.905 Sam Harris

Well, you may have heard this, Richard, but there have been some interesting experiments, I think done at Anthropic, which produces Claude, wherein when you dial down the deceptiveness of the LLMs, I mean, they have some purchase on making them more or less deceptive. When you really select for candor, they disproportionately say that they're conscious.

Chapter 8: What are the implications of AI on society and ethics?

715.365 - 730.196 Sam Harris

And when you allow for deceptiveness, they tend to say that they're not conscious. And that's kind of interesting. I mean, it doesn't really suggest that they They might be conscious to me, but it does suggest that they might think they're conscious, which is also pretty weird. Yes, yes.

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731.078 - 755.265 Richard Dawkins

I'd like to switch to your book on morality. And you've gone out on a limb because most people would say that We cannot actually provide a scientific justification for what's fundamentally moral or immoral. We have to make a kind of leap of, not exactly faith, but a premise anyway, and your premise is we have to avoid suffering.

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755.906 - 763.459 Richard Dawkins

Would you like to elaborate on that a bit, how you felt about going out on a limb against what most philosophers actually prepared to do?

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763.439 - 789.7 Sam Harris

Yeah, I think we've been hamstrung in philosophy and the subdomain of metaethics by a few thought experiments that I think weren't worth taking seriously. I mean, so the famous lines from Hume that get reduced in our conversation about this, you can't derive an ought from an is, which is to say there's no description of the way the world is that can tell you how it should be.

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789.68 - 810.082 Sam Harris

I think that is just a, you know, a linguistic trick, you know, somewhat analogous to the paradoxes of Zeno, right? I mean, for hundreds of years, people thought that this was an interesting philosophical problem. You know, Zeno said, you know, if you shoot an arrow toward a target, it must first go halfway and then halfway again and halfway again, halfway again. And perforce, it'll never arrive.

810.923 - 829.586 Sam Harris

But of course, we know the arrows arrive, but it took time. literally took centuries, I believe, for mathematicians to finally come to the aid of philosophers and explain why that need not be so, you know, rationally, you know, summing the infinite series. I think there's some, a similar degree of confusion introduced by this is-ought distinction.

829.626 - 856.103 Sam Harris

I mean, first, just ask yourself the question, if knowing everything about the way the universe is can't tell you how you ought to live within it, well then, what could? Where else are you going to get your information if the totality of facts about everything that's real and everything that's possible in this universe is insufficient to do the job? But I think we can think about morality by...

856.083 - 877.45 Sam Harris

just jettisoning most of these traditional categories. I just think that the conversation has been divided up in ways that are not helpful. I think the emphasis on ought and should, I mean, this notion of moral obligation is probably a legacy of Abrahamic religion. I don't think it need be at the foundation of our thinking about morality. I think we can just talk about

877.43 - 898.257 Sam Harris

The universe being a place where a very wide range of experiences are on offer for the requisite minds. In the totality of all possible experiences, the full landscape will never be explored. I mean, certainly humans won't explore it, but there are all kinds of possible experiences depending on what sort of mind you have.

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