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Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Wednesday the 18th of March. I'm Holly Wainwright and we have some big news that was embargoed until 9am today. Who wants to share it? Holly, I kind of think you have to be the one to share it. I think you get statistically the most credit for it. Oh, okay.
We are, for the second month in a row, the most listened to podcast in all of the land. We are. In the whole kingdom. I have been telling, like, People who don't need to know this fact, this fact, like I was at the supermarket and I went into the, you know, the line where you get to talk to a person versus scouting yourself. I managed to work it in. I'm Amelia Lester, by the way.
You may know me from Australia's number one podcast, which is funny because in the office you act very nonchalant about it. Oh, no, on the inside. You're like number one, whatever. I've been number one before. Well, I'm not on Fridays so I feel like I can't take full credit. Oh, come on now. And who are you? Oh, I'm Claire Stephens. And you're definitely taking credit.
I get a little bit of credit now. Yeah, I will be rubbing it in Jessie's face saying we're number one. Without you, even though she was on the episodes, but whatever. I'll find a way to really work that in. The chart comes out once a month, if you're wondering what we're talking about, the podcast chart. And for the second month in a row, we are at number one.
Sometimes we're number two, sometimes we're number three, but not anymore. Anyway, let's move on. It's not about us, it's about you. Yes, NBD. Here is what's on our agenda for today. Queen Mary is touring Australia. Yes, the woman once known as Our Mary is coming to royal meet and greets near you. So why isn't anybody talking about it?
Blas, you're seeing peptides all over your socials and we went to find out what they actually are and why the trend of injecting them is really dangerous. and why Reference Man might be making you cold. But first I'm bringing you some scurrilous gossip. Some of it is Oscars related because, you know, we're still mopping up the last little bits of that. Poor one out for Timothee Chalamet.
As we have talked about a lot on the show, he didn't win the Oscar on Monday. In fact, he lost it. And 48 hours after the event, we now know just how mad he was about the whole I'm not going to win the Oscar today thing because it was kind of clear by the time he sat down.
The reason we know this is because a lip reader has translated what he was saying to Kylie Jenner when he was sitting in his seat and he was like... His leg was jiggling, he was smiling, but he looked like, oh, kill me now. And indeed, that's what he said, because according to the lip reader, he said, I hate this. Before Kylie Jenner said to him, we're all right, okay? And he goes, yeah.
And she says, I hope so. Can I ask a question about lip readers? Where were they like five years ago? Because now they're everywhere. Did they have jobs five years ago? Well, I think they might have had proper jobs five years ago. There are all these influencers. So there are lots of like non-professional lip readers. But there are also quite a lot of influencers who make their content on TikTok.
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Chapter 2: What does Timothée Chalamet really think about the Oscars?
Nicole is the godmother of his children. She was besties with his ex-wife. The fact that they are holding hands on a red carpet could mean that the popular romantic trope of friends to lovers has indeed come to life, right? Or it could mean that they would like to stoke a little bit of rumour to get people to watch Scarpetta. Or to get Keith to reel.
Yeah, to get Keith to reel or to get people to watch Scarpetta because, as Amelia says, the reviewers are not encouraging them to. Or they could just be mates promoting a show. Nicole is very, I think she's very clever and strategic about this stuff. I think she'd be holding Simon Baker's hand because she knows it's going to get attention.
And if I was next to Simon Baker, I'd want to hold his hand. That's all I understand. I have famously talked on this show about the fact that he was the most lovely celebrity I've ever met. I mean among the only celebrities I've ever met but very lovely. When did you meet him? I met him at a press event.
He was in the car with me and he introduced himself and he said, hello, I'm Simon Baker and put his hand up. And you said you don't need to introduce yourself to me, sir. And you said, if I shake that hand, can we hold the picture? Keith was reeling somewhere. He definitely was. What do the lip readers say? That's my question. It's true. We need to enlist them.
I don't think they've been on this one. Well, look, I want to bring something from the Oscars that will make your day. And it's a very short clip and it's Ethan Hawke talking to Amelia de Moldenberg on the Oscars red carpet. No further explanation needed. Do you have any advice for someone who also has a bit of an unrequited love theme in their life? The one who's in love always wins. Okay.
Yeah, it doesn't matter if you get your heart broken. You're living. When you're feeling, you're alive. You know, the sun doesn't care whether the grass appreciates its rays, right? It just keeps on shining. I mean, actual chills, right? Actual chills. I'm sorry, it's the most profound thing I've literally ever heard. It's the most profound. Like, the sun doesn't care. Yeah. It doesn't care.
And it just, like, it makes me feel so much better about my eras of unrequited love. Yes, the person who loves always wins. It's so beautiful. Oh, Ethan. I am so here for the Ethan Hawke renaissance. I don't care that he allegedly cheated on Uma Thurman with the nanny who he then married. I don't even know if there's an alleged in that sentence anymore. He does deny it, Holly. He's wise now.
I think he's the saviour of Gen X men. because we all know that a lot of Gen X heartthrobs have not, things have not been less Johnny Depp. Yes. And the thing is that, yes, Ethan Hawke has a few questionable stories in his past, but every time he's interviewed he's real, he drops something wise, he's a deep thinker, he's a bit embarrassing but he doesn't mind. He's ageing like a fine wine.
He really is. I think he could be and he kind of has that. He has the Gen X sort of arty, anti-establishment-y thing that was the best of us. He's holding on to it. Did you even know that he writes novels? No one reads them, but he continues to write them. And he makes documentaries about weird shit and he's Maya Hawke's dad. I just think. He seems like a good dad because I like Maya Hawke.
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Chapter 3: How is lip-reading changing celebrity privacy?
Okay, I have a whole theory about this. People have become too politically correct. And they don't want to say, would you like a seat? So you're not getting it. No one's offering it. They might not know yet. I don't think I would look at you at this moment and go, definitely pregnant. I would put you in the borderline. I could offend her if I offer her the seat category.
You need to wait till really near the end when no one's going like, she might hit me if I say. Yeah. Well, anyway, I do have opinions about how I wish people would take more consideration. But... It turns out everything from public transport to cars to medicines to phones to the temperature of your office was probably designed with a specific person in mind, and his name is Reference Man.
He is a white male, 25 to 35 years old, weighing around 70 kilos, and he's about 170 centimetres tall. In an article for ABC titled Women Are Often an Afterthought When It Comes to Designing Products, Nicole Calms, who is a professor in the Department of Design at Monash University, and she's founding director of the Monash XYX Lab, which leads research into gender-sensitive design.
She tells reporter Amelia Mosley, Reference Man was created in the mid-1970s and he became what I would describe as a kind of default or standard human that was the measure for everything. I think lots of podcasts are made for Reference Man. I think so too. And a lot of books have been written for him. And quite a lot of movies that won things at the Oscars were also made for Reference Man.
That's my problem with One Battle After Another. It was the Reference Man movie. So the problem is that for a very long time, women, despite being half the population, weren't part of the research studies that informed design. And what happened was they'd use men. And I remember learning this at uni.
It's also because it would be men who were the uni students who would participate in all the studies. But they would then just scale everything down 30% or 40% for women.
They were basically saying women are just short males, which didn't take into account all the differences in women's body shape and bone density and body fat and muscle mass and blood pressure and resting heart rate and all of that. So here are a few of the consequences of reference man that I didn't know about. Musical instruments can be more difficult for women to play.
For example, the flute, because they're designed for male hands. Big fingers. Yeah. And so women sometimes get a flute and they can't, like, separate their fingers enough for the whole. That's definitely why I can't play the flute. I was going to say. That's a great excuse for my lack of musical skill.
Women's clothes will often have no pockets or pockets that are so narrow and small they're almost useless. PPE wasn't designed to fit women, even though women make up 70% of frontline healthcare workers. Women are up to 75% more likely to experience adverse reactions to prescription medicines. I reckon I've had this. That seems to be a problem. Yes.
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Chapter 4: What insights does Ethan Hawke provide on unrequited love?
Yeah. Yes. But I think I had this idea that their love story was so uncomplicated and so beautiful that I know I really did. I was like, they're superhuman. And in 2023, rumours started to circulate that he had an affair with a Mexican socialite and there were photos of them together in Spain. For some reason, this story really stuck with me and blew up in my head.
And when I went back and looked at it, the photos are so innocent. Like there really was no smoking gun but I really became attached to it and I really lost hope. I thought maybe no one's really ever happy forever. Yeah, but since when has a whiff of a cheating scandal ever made people less interested than one?
Like normally that ramps up the interest because everyone would be like, let's read the body language. No one's lip reading them even though there was this marriage scandal and that's really interesting. And is it simply that you can choose to not be in the headlines? Because she didn't, Mary didn't engage.
Like if she had gone out and made some big statement about it or if they had made, I don't know, a bit more of a fuss about the whole story, perhaps... it would have become this fixture.
I do think that we have to give Mary some credit for this because the discipline it must have taken her to be in the public eye for more than two decades and to basically have never said anything that blew up is extraordinary. I know. And to have your kids not do anything that has particularly blown up and I wouldn't know what her kids look like. Really?
Oh, I'm afraid I would, but that's because of my background. I think that all of that is true, but I think in terms of the does it show that you can avoid the headlines, I think, as I said before, I think the Danish royal family are a different kettle of fish because Kate Middleton, well, what do we call her, Princess Catherine? has tried that.
Remember, she tried that with the whole photo scandal, the whole unedifying obsession with where she was for a while that ended up being that she had really serious health problems. She tried, never complained, never explained, which has always been the British royal family's mantra and it didn't work under the pressure of the attention economy.
Whereas Mary and Fred, as you say, they wrote out those rumors and everyone was obsessed with it for a minute, but they've disappeared. They're barely mentioned now. There is something really interesting in that. Maybe you can choose... I think most people respect her a lot and admire her in terms of going, what a woman. As you said, Amelia, she's really carried herself so well.
But you don't get the frenzy and that's probably really great. Or you're a bit more complicated and a bit more out there. and you're courting the press all the time and your life's a bit miserable. She's looking amazing in her Akubras and Zimmerman on this trip. Oh, I know. She was kicking a football at the MCG today, which is peak royal tour. That's exactly the kind of stuff you have to do.
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Chapter 5: How does the concept of 'Reference Man' affect product design?
Until April the 1st, you can get 25% off Nala bras if you're a subscriber. And if you become one now, you also get to do that. If you're not a subscriber yet, the girl maths here is pretty simple. So that 25% discount could cover the cost of a membership. There's a link in the show notes. Bye. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've recorded this podcast.