Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
I'm Beth Golay and this is Marginalia. Gunk, yes G-U-N-K, is the title of a novel by British author Saba Sams. The cover design features a bright chartreuse background, with the title spelled out in fat pink letters, suggesting a lightness to the novel. but don't let the title or the cover design deceive you.
Gunk tackles some serious themes, motherhood, non-traditional motherhood, defining motherhood at all.
Chapter 2: What themes does Saba Sams explore in her novel 'Gunk'?
You see, Gunk opens with the scene in which Jules, our protagonist, is caring for a newborn baby, a baby we quickly learn is not her own child. From here, the novel moves back in time, and we learn about Jules' childhood, her relationship with her ex-husband, And we meet the new bartender at the club Jules manages, named, yep, Gunk. The club is named Gunk, not the bartender.
I recently spoke with Saba Sams about the novel. Here's our conversation. So this novel, Gunk, it opens with the description of a scene with a newborn baby. What's happening here? Can you set up Gunk for us? Yeah, so the first scene is my main character, Jules, and she is back home at her flat with a newborn baby who she is mothering, but she is not the mother.
And you're really just thrown in there. It's purposefully mysterious. It was actually almost the last scene that I wrote of the book. I wasn't sure how I would shape Gunk until very, very close to the final draft. At which point I read Giovanni's Room actually by James Baldwin, which has a very similar structure.
And I was really inspired by that kind of present tense, looking back and kind of retelling the past, the how did we get here kind of structure. So I'm curious about the inspiration behind the book. Where did this story begin for you? So if the last scene I wrote was the first scene, the first scene I wrote was almost the last scene, which is the birth scene.
I wrote it having given birth myself and having never really read a realistic birth scene or a birth scene that felt like representative of my experience. And I think I also just wanted to I wanted to read it because of that.
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Chapter 3: How does the protagonist Jules' relationship with motherhood unfold?
And then I wanted to write it because I It felt like something I had to get down. So I wrote it from the perspective of the character giving birth. In Gunk, it's actually from the outsider perspective, which is Jules, who's not giving birth. But when I first wrote it, it was a first person perspective and it completely didn't work.
I saw why I have read so few birth scenes that work or that feel believable because it became like writing...
it was like trying to write like an acid trip or something it just stopped making any kind of narrative sense really fast that was the moment when Jules came in this other perspective I realized I had to had to kind of reframe and if I needed a witness because I wanted to witness birth that's why I wanted to write it I also needed a witness in the book you know I needed someone to be there watching narrating for me and that's how it began I just had these two women in a labor ward and one was giving birth and one was watching and I was
just then kind of like presented with the question of how they got there. And that was the story of the book. Yeah, I feel like we're talking about birth scenes and like this newborn scene at the beginning and this birth scene at the end. But those are such small parts of the book. The main thrust of the book is this backstory, this context that you are providing about these two women.
Maybe we should introduce Jules and Nim to our listeners. Can you talk a little bit about these women? Yeah, sure. So Jules is 40 and she is working in this kind of grotty student nightclub called Gunk, which belongs to her ex-husband Leon. And she basically runs the place while he kind of goes around being useless and flirting with underage girls. And Nim is one of those girls. She's hired by
to work the bar at the very beginning of the book. She's got a shaved head. She's very mysterious and charming. She's not actually a student, but she's the age of the students. She's 19. And there's just like this immediate kind of electricity between them, this kind of like non-romantic, but really strong charismatic connection. And yeah, that's the two of them.
I feel like I want to talk about relationships and maybe in particular mothering because Jules feels called to be a mother, but the traditional route to motherhood was not or cannot happen for her. Nim accuses Jules of mothering Nim and even of mothering Leon. Can you talk a little bit about what's behind Jules' maternal feelings? Yeah, sure. I am...
I think a big side of writing Gunk for me was expanding this word mother and kind of breaking down the barriers around how we define mother, which is why, you know, Jules can mother a baby that she didn't give birth to, why Jules can mother Leon, for example, who's not her child. Why Nim, who's younger than Jules, can actually step in and mother Jules in lots of scenes.
I think I was struck by this thing of mothers need mothering. I'm a mother to young children and I felt like I had a baby
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Chapter 4: What inspired Saba Sams to write the birth scene in 'Gunk'?
I keep saying the word Gunk. Gunk is the name of the club where they all work. Gunk is the name of the title. I did see it used as a description late in the book. But I'm wondering, does it have another reference or meaning? You know, Gunk was translated into German. And the translators, there was a long conversation because the word Gunk doesn't exist in German. They have a word for everything.
Yeah, it's so interesting, right? It's like...
it's such it feels like such a specific word to me and it has many meanings and it came I mean I named the club gunk initially before I had named the book gunk it was just like felt like the right name for that kind of club and I knew it was visceral and bodily and I knew that's what I wanted my book to be and then it kind of took on new meanings about kind of like the gunk of life and gunky relationships and that kind of
you know, like all the undefinable, like these kind of sticky places in between the categories where my characters all seem to exist. And then the point that you said when it was used as a descriptor late in the book is I was like, it was with my friend in my garden and I was talking about the book I was writing and she was like, oh, like the gunk that a newborn baby comes out covered in.
And I went back in and I like added it to the birth scene. You know, she's referring to this stuff called phoenix, the like white stuff that a newborn comes out with all over its body. And that was a cool full circle moment. That was really like, oh, that that word is bigger than the word that I thought it was.
And it's also this is like the book that I have been like intending to write suddenly kind of coming together. That was a really special moment. It was probably like my favorite part of the process, a process which was mostly just really hard. Let's talk about Brighton as a setting, because it felt more than a setting to me. Or was I imagining that?
Was there some other sort of exploration of the city going on for you? Yeah, true. It is more of a setting. I think it's a character, really, isn't it? It's like Leon. It's kind of like... And I think it's the way that maybe most writers would write where they grew up, which is this quite intense...
hatred or like you know like irritation but also like a real love and and I think I'm allowed to do that because I come from there like if anyone talks about Brighton like I talk about Brighton who's not from Brighton I'll take offense but because I'm from Brighton it's okay but yeah it's such a it's such a specific place and I think because it's a because it's on the coast seasons there feel
very intense. And I think because it's a, it's like a very touristy place in the summer. So that brings like a whole new crowd or like the streets look different. There are so many more people like, and then in the winter, it can be really very bleak and gray and empty and cold with the like freezing sea wind.
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Chapter 5: Who are the main characters in 'Gunk' and what are their dynamics?
She buys clothes, makeup, and skincare products in an attempt to make herself beautiful, or at least something she thinks others might want her to be. After a series of sexual encounters with boys her own age, which she recounts in graphic but emotionally distant detail, Waldo sets her sights on Mr. Corgi, her married, balding, middle-aged creative writing teacher.
Can we pause just a second here to appreciate these characters' names, Waldo and Mr. Corgi? Those details tell you a lot about McCurdy's overall message here, with Waldo searching to find her true self among the crowd and instead fixating on Corgi with the puppy dog eyes.
Where the novel goes from here is predictable and hard to read, a modern-day Lolita set in the classrooms and closets of an American high school. But McCurdy gives us a wholly original character and a plot that twists and turns and keeps us guessing. Waldo is brash and self-deprecating, and while she behaves like an average 17-year-old, she is not a stereotypical victim.
The author does not shy away from parental blame, as she makes clear that Waldo's dysfunctional family sets the stage for her reckless pursuit of affection and love. In fact, some of the novel's most troubling scenes don't involve the mismatched lovers, although those are plenty disturbing, but rather the exchanges between mother and daughter.
Waldo is raised to believe that the secret to happiness is pretending, transforming herself into a woman that fulfills a man's fantasies without caring or even knowing who she really wants to be. Much like McCurdy's memoir, half his age is bold and brash and unapologetic.
Its content will no doubt be offensive to some, but this tale of power, neglect, and misguided yearning offers plenty to discuss. For Marginalia, I'm Suzanne Perez. Half His Age by Jeanette McCurdy was published by Ballantyne Books. Thanks for joining us for Marginalia.
Next week, we will revisit our conversation with Karen Russell in anticipation of the paperback release of her novel, The Antidote. Here's a little preview. This book is set in the fictional town of Uz, Nebraska. And the land of Uz is from the Book of Job, but we're in Kansas, so I hope you forgive this question.
When I started reading this, I felt like the antidote would be a retelling of L. Frank Baum's story, The Wizard of Oz. It's set in Uz, which is very similar to Oz, but other than the witch, the personification of a scarecrow, a town named Uz, gales, western skies, tornadoes. sepia-toned memories and the mention of home, it felt highly original. Did you take any inspiration from The Wizard of Oz?
Man, I mean, I've seen that in so much copy now, Beth, and I'm like, yeah, oh, I guess that naming the town Oz, it's really, I mean, in the wheel of fortune of it all, right? It's very close to Oz. But I, yeah, I'm sure that book imprinted on me. I think you probably can't have like a scarecrow point of view character without courting that Harrison.
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Chapter 6: What does the author say about the concept of mothering in 'Gunk'?
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