Chapter 1: What makes love drive us to irrational behavior?
Dr. Max Butterfield, welcome to the show. Chris, thank you for having me. Please call me Max. No, Dr. Max Butterfield. You rip. I absolutely love your content. I think you're so fantastic. I really appreciate it. I am shocked every day when somebody tells me that because I'm nobody. I just have been telling people who I am every day for the last year, and it kind of started to take hold, I guess.
Yeah. Yeah, and there's very few people doing evidence-based relationship advice, especially in short form on social media. So it doesn't surprise me that it's going well. PhD in experimental psychology, master's in clinical psych, master's in experimental psych, bachelor's in psych, and some additional work in religion, law, and languages. Just a couple of things.
I really, you know, in first grade, I decided I liked school and I was never going to leave. So still here 30 years later. All right. I'm going to get you to react to something straight off the bat. Norwegian biathlete, still a home leg raid. Have you seen this? Yep. Okay.
So this 28-year-old guy chose the Olympics as a place to shoot his shot with his ex after he won the bronze in the men's 20-kilometer biathlon in a viral post online. After his win in the interview, this guy confessed to cheating on the love of his life, revealing that she dumped him after he came clean a week ago and said he was committing social suicide in the hopes of winning her back.
It seems like his plan backfired since his ex, who has remained anonymous, reportedly told Norwegian tabloid VG that it's hard to forgive even after a declaration of love in front of the whole world. So for the people that haven't seen it, Dean will cut it in now. Six months ago, I met the love of my life, the world's most beautiful, wonderful person in the world.
And three months ago, I made the biggest mistake of my life and cheated on her. As you can see, that guy used... probably the crowning moment of his entire career. Maybe his entire life, right? You've worked from a child to do this thing. Biathlon's the rifle shooting with the skiing thing, I think. I believe so, yeah. Way more of an expert on relationships than on fucking biathlons. Right.
He chose that moment, the crowning moment, as he gets to do the interview, could have thanked his mom, could have thanked God, could have thanked all the hard work, used it as the opportunity to try and do that. Dissect this from a science-based lens for me, please. What's going on? Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing I want to know is, was this planned? You know, did he think this through?
Because to me, that is very different. If he's like, OK, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to try to get her back. And he's rationally, you know, got some reasons. Or if this was just like, hey, I'm in front of the camera. I'm all excited.
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Chapter 2: How can we understand the impact of breakups on mental health?
I don't know what to say. I don't know how to regulate myself. Let me just let this fly. I think the results are going to be the same regardless. But the feedback I would have for him would be very different depending on whether he did this on the fly. Give me both of you. Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, so if he did this on the fly, I would, you know, going forward, I don't know how you walk this back. First of all, I mean, like you said, he shot his shot here in front of the whole world. This is his crowning achievement. He shot his shot after shooting many shots. That's exactly what, you know, I'm going through my head.
It's like by athlete, like just stick to your 50 meters or whatever it is. Don't let's not shoot this kind of shot in this situation. Right. So that's and that's what I would tell him.
I think in a lot of ways, you've got to you got to use humor there to diffuse the situation with the individual because he just blew up his life, really, because it's this is not just going to affect his relationship with this woman. Now, every woman on the planet is like, oh, this guy's a cheater. OK, cool. And that's not the message that I don't I don't think you want that out there.
And again, this is what I would tell him just straight off the cuff is like, look, man, we've got two things to do is one is repair the damage. And then the second is, what do we do for you to help you regulate and think through what, you know, what you're what you're going to do in the future? Now, if he planned this out, I would ask questions instead.
And my first question would be like, what were you thinking? What was going through your head here? Because I don't know, honestly. I think there is this desire probably to tell her and tell the world that like, no, I'm a good guy. I'm trying to do the right thing. And that would be my hope here is that ultimately he's trying to do the right thing and he feels bad. And that...
kind of shame and guilt that you would feel after cheating is going to motivate people to great lengths to try to repair and restore. So if we're thinking about, is this guy a good guy? He might actually be a really good guy who made a mistake or he might be an idiot. And that's why I don't think, I think we'd have to ask more questions and find out. And I don't know the guy.
And so it's fun to think about him being an idiot, but at the same time, it feels so bad for him. Look, I get it, but there is a bit of... There's the beginning of a potentially shit rom-com going on here. 100%. Oh, 100%. When we look at sort of the cliches in romance, especially romance films and stuff, where there's a...
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Chapter 3: What are effective strategies to recover from a breakup?
clumsy protagonist or a guy on the side and all the rest of it. It's strange how with the right lighting and a slightly better script, this could be the beginning, you know, either crowning achievement of this guy's life and he sort of lays down this accomplishment at the feet of this woman.
I think one of the things that most people get skeptical around is if he'd used that opportunity to win her back after he'd broken up with her, and said, I realized I made a mistake. That feels different to this sort of rumbling of his lack of virtue, this sort of low credibility man potentially who is sort of using... I did see one person say that it was emotional manipulation.
I think if anybody is being emotionally manipulated, it's him by himself. I think that he is doing... He may be... Is it emotional manipulation or is it...
kind of just holy shit I fucked up and and maybe I'm a bad guy maybe I'm not a bad guy but I'm just like I clambering clamoring to get back into connection with this person I'm so dysregulated I just need something and if she sees me basically dedicating the greatest moment of my life to her that being said he was in a relationship for six months he cheated three months in and told her a week ago um
Look, if you're going to be an Olympic athlete, fucking keep it in your pants for six months, dude. You've worked toward this for a long, at least four years. Holy shit. Well, and not to mention, I think you're right on point there in terms of he's probably dysregulated. He's probably trying anything and not in his maybe right mind in that way.
And that's what happens is often when a relationship fails, people, they'll do anything and they'll try anything. It's like they're allocating their effort to the wrong things. So this is not a situation where you want to try harder. This is a situation where you want to try better. And for him here, rather than being like, you know, a national international television, hey, I cheated.
Hey, I messed up my relationship and I just want to say sorry to Melinda or whatever her name is, you know. And that kind of reallocation is essential because it's not trying harder is not going to it's not going to do this. Trying harder, in fact, often chases people away. That's an interesting one.
Talk to me about some of the ways that the romantic mind tells people to try and fix breakups that the sort of status driven, slightly more rational mind has got a bit of an aversion to. Yeah. You know, I think in many ways, we have no idea what we're doing in human relations. Nobody does, you know, in human relationships because we are animals and we are very reactionary.
And but it doesn't feel like it because we have this higher order cognition that makes a lot of sense. And it tries to convince us that, no, I'm doing this for a very specific reason. And so as a result, people rationalize what they're doing at a level that is always going to feel like it makes sense from the inside and from the outside. Very different. And so let me give you an example.
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Chapter 4: How does communication affect relationship dynamics?
And same with a breakup. This bad thing has happened and you might have to deal with some hard truths to get this person back or to fix what's going on in yourself to not be a cheater anymore or whatever. And that's hard and that's scary. And so you take a couple of steps forward and a couple of steps back. And This also applies when we're trying to get somebody back.
So suppose you broke up with somebody and you'll do anything to get them back. That is a slow process. And people think that grand gestures are the way to go. They're not grand gestures like suppose you had a scared cat under a car and, you know, it's been living in your neighborhood for a long time. It's getting hungry. It's not doing well.
And you want to coax it out from under the car and you decide you're going to dive under the car and grab it by the tail and pull it out. You're never going to see that cat again if you miss the tail. And that's often what we do with breakups. That's often what we do when we really like people is we dive under that car and we make this grand gesture, this big grab.
But really what you need to do is very slowly approach that car. Maybe for days you do this and you offer that piece of food or you put out that water, you show that you are a safe person. That's an investment. And that takes a lot of time and it requires delayed gratification. We don't have a lot of ability for delayed gratification in...
adult society unfortunately we certainly don't if we are out of regulation and scared and anxious and we know that the attachment wound that we're currently trying to fix the exact shape and size of it is the same shape and size that that person is there and if only I could get them and slot them in
all of my pain would stop and the quicker that I can do that the more quickly I'm going to get back into regulation so therefore the grander the gesture they will see how important and impressive and how much I care about them I just got the bronze medal in the biathlon and I'm going to do it and the sky's going to part and then my dysregulation is going to be fixed she's going to see how grand of a gesture this is it is on his to kind of defend a guy that's cheated as poorly as I can um
The sort of grand gesture thing, first off, does sound romantic. And secondly, I think it's coming from a good place, at least the grand gesture thing, not the fucking I'm a cheater thing. The grand gesture thing is coming from a good place, which is I want to just try my best to show you how much I care.
And what is being missed is unfortunately a dynamic that exists in pretty much all humans, especially humans that have just been slighted or someone that's not feeling particularly receptive to whatever it is that you're going to try and do to them. There are kind of a bit of a tough stand-up comedy audience that are sort of sitting back like, go on, make me laugh.
And the more cloying that you are, the more pliable that you appear, the more dysregulated you are. Like, hey, the situation we just went through was one that was highly unsafe for me.
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Chapter 5: What role does rumination play in our emotional responses?
And that's how it feels when you're pursuing a romantic relationship and things aren't going well. You've got this fight or flight response. You're being chased by a bear and then you're trying to chase somebody at the same time. You're going to look like a maniac. And of course it's not going to work. And so self-regulation is the very first primary thing
endeavor that you need to undertake is figure out how to regulate your own emotions. And that's the nice part is these are skills and they're skills that can be taught. And unfortunately, you don't, there's no class, even in like second grade, there's no class. How do you calm down? But there probably should be.
what would be your prescription to somebody who is going through emotionally turbulent relationship stuff and they're thinking i really could do with regulating this breakup is is turning me inside out i can't stop thinking about them whatever whatever uh What does science say about how people should recover from a breakup? There's a couple of different approaches that people take.
And for me, mine is distraction. I think distraction is very important. Healthy distraction. So don't distract yourself with alcohol, for example. One drink, fine. No big deal. But healthy distraction is go to work. pour yourself into it. Go to school, pour yourself into it. Healthy distraction is hanging out with your friends, join a new rec league, play kickball, whatever. I don't care.
But whatever you're interested in, if it's video games, that's fine. That is enough to kind of give you a chance to literally calm down. And you don't wanna get lost in those things, but just having a couple of good nights where you sleep is really important. And so if you can tire yourself out by lifting heavy, by running long, whatever it is, playing soccer, And so you sleep.
As a result, your body's just going to start taking care of itself in ways that it just was unable to before. Yeah. Another interesting thing that I learned is people's sense of guilt is almost always directly correlated with the likelihood that they're going to be caught.
So this is an evolutionary theory and it makes complete sense that if somebody's ever done something, they were driving down the road and a wrapper came out of the car and there was super strong wind and it blew away and you're like, I'm never going to find, no one's ever going to know. It was in the middle of the night.
Or you do it in the middle of a busy neighborhood and tons of people can see. And they're like, did that rapper just come out of that car? Is that Dr. Max Butterfield from Instagram? I hate that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I broke up with my boyfriend because of him. The likelihood of you being caught... is directly correlated with the amount of guilt that you feel.
And every time that I see situations where someone is under pressure being... There's all of these court cases going on at the moment about the Epstein files, right? And people are being poked and prodded and cross-examined or whatever. And I'm looking... This is big shit, right?
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Chapter 6: How do societal expectations influence romantic interactions?
how's this motherfucker breathing so slowly? And to me, it's one of a few things. Either goat meditator, breathwork practitioner with a fucking nervous system like a glass lake didn't do it. And importantly, didn't do it and doesn't think that he's going to be falsely accused of having done it because didn't do it and still might do it is all of the
disadvantages of guilt without any of the benefits of actually having to get away with the fucking thing uh or the third one just straight up doesn't think that he's going to be caught regardless of whether he did it or not so yeah i just it's interesting especially watching somebody who did it announced it themselves or maybe he got caught he doesn't really say or he says that he told her um this like retrospective guilt thing is real interesting to me because obviously all of the evidence is out there he's already said it all
Right. And, you know, there's another possibility as well, and that's drugs. You know, when you take beta blockers, for example, I don't know if you know about beta blockers, but basically it it blocks the ability in your body to detect that you're feeling anxious and they're meant for something else.
But, you know, you could take them if you have a you're going to go into a like a billiards tournament.
and you don't want shaky hands so you take beta blockers or you have a big presentation and they're prescription only so you have to go to your physician to get them but these beta blockers essentially lower your heart rate lower your respiration rate lower your uh your blood pressure like all that stuff but they also disconnect so you don't feel that sensation of the beating heart and so
You know, there could be any variety. Saying that the Epstein files are using performance enhancing drugs. They're juicing. That's what it is. Performance enhancing drugs. But come on. If I said that to you, would you be shocked? You know, they went to their doctor and they said, I got to go to the courtroom and I have to maintain calm. Like, what do you do? Beta blockers. Done. Bruh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Little do you know that you're helping people regulate their way through being cross-examined about being a part of the fucking worst conspiracy in history. Let's cut this. Come on, man. You got to help me out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So how similar is grieving a breakup to grieving a death neurologically in terms of the way that it sort of impacts our attachment system?
I think in many ways it's the same. Yeah, we're very we have very blunt instruments in terms of our regulatory systems. And it's like like fight or flight, for example, the idea that we're being chased by a bear. is going to activate the same systems as getting in a fight with your mom. And maybe not to the same degree, but it's just one system and it's either on or off.
And in many ways, I think grief is the same. And so as a result, any kind of loss, whether you lose your dog or your grandma or your romantic partner, we just have these blunt instruments that are kind of on or off. This episode is brought to you by Gymshark. You want to look and feel good when you're in the gym. Gymshark makes the best men's and girls' gym wear on the planet.
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Chapter 7: What are the signs of healthy versus unhealthy communication?
Why do we ruminate so much? What's the role of rumination? There are a variety of theories about that. You know, you mentioned evolutionary theory before. And one idea is that rumination will prevent you from doing this in the future. So this is an applied mechanism that over time, people who tended to ruminate would make less mistakes actually over time.
You know, just kind of one theory and they'd be more likely to survive. So you accidentally cut off your finger with a rock back in the day and and you smash it or whatever. That's just kind of basic learning. Don't do that again. And if you're constantly worrying, don't smash my finger, don't smash my finger, remember that time I smashed my finger, you're a lot less likely to smash your finger.
And it's the same with breakups or anything else. So that's one theory. Another is much more local, kind of present to your own life, and that is it serves a function for you in the moment, which is... You ruminate and you get in some ways rewarded by that. It creates maybe stimulation in you, whether it's dopamine or anything else.
And that rumination makes it's rewarding, even though it's punishing at the same time. Again, this idea that sometimes punishing things can feel good, like that class clown in fifth grade that gets yelled at by the teacher, but all the other students laugh because that punishment is actually reinforcing in many ways. So that's another theory is that rumination is this loop that we get stuck in.
That certainly makes us feel bad, but also it can be self-continuing. And so different people have different approaches to understanding it. For me, that's what I like to look at when I'm advising people is what function is this serving for you? And most people say, what are you talking about? That's not serving any function.
And that's why it keeps happening is because we don't have that insight that it actually is doing something. And that's what we have to get to the bottom of it. Rick Hansen has a podcast with his son, Forrest, called Being Well. And they did a full episode on rumination. And that was one of the things that I found so fascinating. He gets people to ask this question.
What are you getting out of your rumination? What are you getting out of your, what is it that it's doing for you? And you're right. When you first think about that question, you go, what the fuck do you mean? If I could exercise this out of me, if I could expunge it from myself, of course I would. I don't want to be thinking about this thing from the past.
This stupid sentence that I said at dinner last night or how that person that I really like probably doesn't like me back and I'm worried that they don't or whatever, that my girlfriend's going to find out that I cheated on her. Yeah. But it is, it is. And a couple of things, a couple of insights that I think at least hold a bit of water. One is that the human mind abhors uncertainty so much.
Ambiguity and uncertainty are kind of one of the seats of... like the germinators of anxiety. And if you've got ambiguity and uncertainty, you would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with ambiguity. Because what happened, what is going to happen, what this means for the future, there is an open loop somewhere and you're closing it, you're collapsing it down.
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Chapter 8: How can we better understand and signal romantic interest?
And it just goes to show how much humans abhor ambiguity and uncertainty that we would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with not knowing. I think that's a pretty cool insight. Well, another element of this is that our brains are also... cognitive misers, they want to take the path of least resistance. They want to do the thing that's the easiest.
And so if you wear in a path, this is, you know, very much kind of glossing over a lot of details, but if you wear in a path, that path is going to get used again and it's going to get used again and again. And so if you ruminate once, you're a little more likely to ruminate again. And if you ruminate again, and you see where this is going, this isn't good.
So if we have an involved tendency to ruminate, and it can serve a function for us, and it's self-reinforcing just because of cognitive architecture, we're kind of doomed in a lot of ways once that rumination starts, unless there's intervention. And interventions, I mean, therapy can be helpful, but there are other interventions as well. Just
you know, breaking your routine, going somewhere else, doing something else. It doesn't always have to be therapy. Therapy is good for some people, but for others, you can do this without, you know, this serious kind of costly intervention. It's like, do something else. Think about something else.
It seems like you're suggesting that the content of your thoughts after a difficult period are pretty important, that if you want to get over whatever it is that's happening, giving yourself some fresh territory to inhabit. I really, really hate the way that if my partner's been on a night out, that I worry about...
them the next morning and whether I've got a text or every morning I wake up and I think about that girl and she hasn't texted me back or whatever.
It's like, okay, well, maybe if you do something different because your thoughts are attached to the patterns that you've been behaving, the fact that you get up and look at your phone straight away or the fact that you get up and go to that part of the house in order to get breakfast.
Well, maybe if you got up and went straight to a coffee shop, that pattern's already disrupted the way that you operate and therefore it's going to disrupt the way that you think. Exactly. You know, if you wake up and you check your phone instantly, put your phone somewhere else, put it in the garage, put it in the car before you go to bed. It's not, it doesn't have to be complicated.
It just is switch things up a little bit. And I think people overcomplicate, especially people who tend to ruminate. They're like, well, there has to be a complicated solution. Allow me to ruminate about my rumination problem. No, exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
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