Next Up with Mark Halperin
Waltz OUT as NSA... Could Witkoff Be Next Up? Plus, Gavin Newsom on Why He's Not a "Crazy Liberal"
Thu, 1 May 2025
Mark Halperin discusses his breaking news reporting that Mike Waltz is out as NSA, why there were rumblings about his role there even before Signalgate, how Steve Witkoff might be next up for the job, how a recent hit piece against Witkoff relates to this news today, what it actually takes to run for and become president, the need for that person to part of the national conversation, why Barack Obama was the gold standard, Gretchen Whitmer's shaky COVID history, Trump's interest in helping select both the GOP and Dem nominee, and more. Then California Governor Gavin Newsom joins to discuss why he’s not a “crazy liberal,” talks bucking his own party when he thinks Democrats go too far, and his thoughts on young men increasingly leaning conservative. Plus, is a run in 2028 Next Up for the California Governor? Then Jessica Reed Kraus and Jessica Millan Patterson join to discuss the successes of HHS Secretary RFK Jr. so far, the overall rise of MAHA as a common sense bipartisan movement, which Trump admin official they'd like to have dinner with, advice to the admin about Signal and other issues, and more.
Chapter 1: What are the details behind Mike Waltz's removal as National Security Advisor?
what we like to call a worldwide exclusive, President Trump, after a long period of consideration, is getting rid of his national security advisor, Mike Waltz, who came in to the job with an incredible reputation. When President Trump named him national security advisor, many people said this was a great sign that Trump 2.0 was picking adults and pros.
Well, the decision to get rid of Waltz has been percolating for a long time. You'll recall that he led that signal chat group that caused so much controversy and raised questions about his competence.
Ironically, I think that controversy helped keep Waltz in his job for longer because President Trump didn't want to give a scalp to those like Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic who were saying that what Waltz did violated all sensible procedures.
What's been going on behind the scenes, and I've been reporting on this for several weeks, is that people in the national security part of the administration at the State Department, Elsewhere in the White House at the National Economic Council, people connected to the highest levels of the West Wing. It wasn't about ideology.
It wasn't the question of whether Waltz was too neocon or wasn't on the right side of issues. It was about process and competence. People thought he was too concerned about being in charge and not running a tight ship. The National Security Council staff is not very big. They sit right in the West Wing near the president.
And Waltz is it was considered to be simply not up to the job of managing that daily flow of information. You've got embassies around the world. You've got the Pentagon, the State Department, the Treasuries involved in national security. That was another building, another part of the Trump administration that just said, Walsh simply just can't do the job. Surprising.
Military background, senior intelligence positions on Capitol Hill as a Florida congressman. Very well regarded. But this was seen as a failure even before Singlegate. People were telling me he's not going to be long for the job.
The reason that this has been delayed besides the president not wanting to give the media the satisfaction of getting rid of his national security advisor is they need someone to take the job. And they've had a difficulty finding someone. They considered a guy from the State Department, Marco Rubio's number two. He's doing such a good job. He's got job luck.
I feel bad for the guy because I think he'd probably like to be national security advisor. But he's not going to get the job, I'm told, because Rubio says, no, he's too valuable helping run the State Department. The person who is front and center to potentially get the job is Steve Witkoff. Now, this is some reporting that I think I'm ahead on also about where this stands.
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Chapter 2: Who is Steve Witkoff and could he replace Mike Waltz as NSA?
The president faced a choice whether to delay the decision to get rid of Waltz, which again was being called for by lots of people around him, until they could find the candidate, or fire him and leave the job basically open or have Waltz do it until they find a replacement and try to find a replacement. This is so common.
Not just for Donald Trump, who's not the best at personnel, but for any president, which is OK, we've got to get rid of a person X, but we don't have the replacement. So I think what happened today and I'm not sure about this because I didn't ask my sources, but I confirm this story after the initial tip really easily. Real easily, right? So for a reporter, normally you get a tip.
Sometimes it can take hours, sometimes days to get a second source. I got my second and third source almost as quick as I could dial up some additional people. Here's what I think happened. It's my speculation, but I think I'm right. The people who wanted Waltz out and don't want Witkoff in couldn't come up with another candidate, but they wanted Waltz out.
They didn't want to let the president change his mind because sometimes Donald Trump will change his mind. And so what I think happened is they said, let's put out the story that waltz has gone. That'll force the president's hand. The president won't have the excuse of saying, well, I can't get rid of them until we have the replacement. And so I'm not saying I was used.
I might have been rented to say, let's put this out. Let's let's force the president to do what he's committed to doing, getting rid of Waltz. And then he'll find someone. I don't know whether Whitcow is going to end up in the job based on this reporting I've done so far. I don't think so. I think he's got some strong supporters, but I think there's some opposition.
But the important thing is that the president's either his hand was forced or people didn't want to wait around to see. Didn't want to wait around to see whether he would follow through because sometimes Donald Trump follows through on personnel stuff and sometimes he doesn't. I'll keep covering the story. I'll have more on two way tonight to talk about it. And of course, we'll keep tracking it.
Follow me on social media as well for my reporting on that. All right, the other thing I want to talk to you about before we talk to Gavin Newsom is about presidential politics, okay? Lots of you are super interested in it. You can't get enough of saying who's going to be the next president or who's going to be the next nominees of the major parties. On the Republican side, I think J.D.
Vance is in a very strong position. The Democratic side's wide open, right? They don't control the White House.
uh were past the period of of clinton's obama's biden right those three families those three uh uh dynasties have taken up a lot of room and now the question is who's it going to be in 2028 and one of the great joys i have is covering presidential politics one of the great frustrations i have is everybody thinks they know and i'm here to tell you again with humility uh and and confidence born from
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Chapter 3: What does it really take to run for and become president in 2028?
I mean, again, you might you might not like Barack Obama. You might think he was a horrible president, but that's a star. Right. That is poised in three different kind of venues. Now, some of these prospective candidates, maybe they could do well on The Today Show or maybe they could do well on Monday Night Football or late night.
But I don't see any of them, I wouldn't have confidence in any of the three of them at that level of performance. And it's likability, it's confidence, but it's also an understanding of what these different venues are. And of course, now today, there are way more venues than there used to be. There's this program, there's Megan's program, there's so many different programs people can go on.
But you still have to understand the national conversation. You have to understand America. So we talk about some of the people who are discussed now as prospective candidates. And I'm going to tell you about my skepticism. It extends to the whole field. Gavin Newsom will be here later. Arguably, of all the people talked about for running,
The two Californians, Gavin Newsom and Kamala Harris, are the two with the most experience in this realm being part of the national conversation. OK, so I'm least skeptical about them on that measure, although I'm skeptical about them both for other reasons. But all these other people.
Governor Shapiro, Pennsylvania, Cory Booker, who's run before, they just don't have this level of experience, whether it's over a long period of time like Bill Clinton and Donald Trump or a very concentrated way like George W. Bush and Barack Obama. They just don't have that. So Gretchen Whitmer, governor of Michigan, big state, talked about as a potential candidate for a while.
talked about potentially being running mate for Joe Biden or Kamala Harris. And again, I got nothing against her. She's obviously a talented politician. Being able to get elected governor of Michigan, that alone is a huge feat. But the gap between even a mega state and running for president successfully, again, it's massive. Gretchen Whitmer knows a lot of people, I bet she thinks.
Gretchen Whitmer thinks, well, I survived a lot of controversies, a lot of pressure situations. Case study, Gretchen Whitmer, COVID. She was governor during COVID. A huge test for anybody in elective office. A lot of pressure. Pressure from business, pressure from parents, pressure from public health officials. I watch Gretchen Whitmer closely.
And again, I'm using her as a case study, but I think what I'm saying about her applies to everybody else who I see named as a possible candidate. Even Pete Buttigieg, who served in the cabinet, okay? Here's Gretchen Whitmer during COVID, okay? A couple of things happened that just really stayed with me.
First of all, Gretchen Whitmer's husband during COVID wanted to take his boat out, was against the rules to go take your boat out. Purported Northern Michigan boat launch request fuels controversy for Whitmer from the Detroit News. Then 108 New York Times, okay? Michigan governor says husband request was quote, failed attempt at humor.
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Chapter 4: Why is Barack Obama considered the gold standard in presidential candidates?
She's tricked into speaking. Listen to how awkward it is where she basically thanks Trump without saying his name.
I want to thank you very much, Gretchen. Good job. Thank you.
I hadn't planned to speak, but on behalf of all the military men and women who serve our country and serve so honorably on behalf of the state of Michigan, I am really damn happy we're here to celebrate this recapitalization at Selfridge. It's crucial for the Michigan economy. It's crucial for the men and women here, for our homeland security and our future. So thank you. I'm so, so grateful that
This announcement was made today, and I appreciate all the work. Thank you.
Okay, so if Gretchen Whitmer ends up running for president, the blue folder in front of her face, the handshake, the awkward remarks, it may not matter. She's putting herself in the same camp as Governor Newsom, saying, I'm fine with being nice to Trump when it's in my state's interest.
But what I see here is not just bad staff work, but not playing at the level required to get through the gauntlet. Now, somebody's going to get through the gauntlet, and if I'm right that that they're all pretty weak, like second grade soccer league, even if all the teams are bad, somebody wins the championship.
But my caution here, my main message on this is, if you think that it's easy to run for president, and if you think being successful as a governor or a senator or a business person is enough, it's not. Have you been in the national conversation? Have you been talking to people about America? And I don't see it in Gretchen Whitmer, but I don't see it in almost any of these other people.
And I think Donald Trump is going to do his best to muck around and embarrass and humiliate and taunt all the Democrats to try to figure out how he can weaken the entire party. So his chosen candidate, which I think will be J.D. Vance, will work. All right. Coming up, someone who is discussed as a potential presidential candidate, California Governor Gavin Newsom.
He is, in fact, very experienced in the national conversation. And it's one reason I think people underrate him as a potential presidential candidate. We're going to talk about how what I hear about Governor Newsom. He hears it, too. Try to dispel some of the myths and maybe break a little news. So stay tuned for California Governor Newsom next up right here.
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Chapter 5: What lessons does Mark Halperin offer about potential 2028 Democratic candidates?
I've listened to every episode. I love your show and I love I love what you're doing. And I think I agree with what you're suggesting, that it's nuts. You're not going to use that word probably, but it's nuts the way people have reacted negatively to you talking to people. And and I've enjoyed the ones that have been a little bit catchy and contentious and kind of combative.
And I've enjoyed the ones that have been friendly. whether you're interviewing Democrats or conservatives. I think it's great. I'd even say it's historic what you've done. And it pains me that you've gotten some of the negative reaction you have because I don't understand what these people think you're supposed to do in America besides talk to people you disagree with and listen.
Yeah, look, I mean, I think we're a little bit desperate right now for a sense of belonging, a sense of well-being and, you know, tearing other people down 24-7. I mean, the election's over. Democrats got shellacked. Donald Trump, you know, wasn't historic. That's BS. But he beat us and he beat us badly. And I think we need to have a little humility and a little grace and understanding of why.
What happened? Who are the architects of his success? Who are the folks that believe in him? Why did we lose in almost every demographic group? Why did he gain in almost every demographic group? Why young men are moving away from the Democratic Party? And so I do think it's important to have a forensic.
If we don't do that, we're going to have a hell of a time in the next few years figuring out a path back.
Once you and I get a long weekend together, I want to do like Mystery Science Theater and sit and watch them all with you and talk about them. And we're not going to have time to do much, but I want to talk to you about Charlie Kirk. He's someone whose show I've appeared on. He's come on the two-way platform with me.
What would you tell Democrats about how Charlie Kirk has succeeded in his multidimensional thing that he does and the lessons that are there for your party?
Well, he does two things at once. He floods the zone, and he listens, and he engages. He's willing to debate, and he's willing to debate anyone. He shows up. He has a strategy. He has a plan. He's showing up in places you wouldn't expect. He's showing up in places you wouldn't expect with crowds you wouldn't expect. And he's got no one on our side doing what Charlie Kirk is doing.
And he's converting young folks, he's converting young men. I wasn't joking when I talked to Charlie. I said, my son, I wasn't making this up. I said, my 13 year old son wanted to skip school to meet him. Not because he agrees with him, just because he knows him because he's in his algorithm. It's not just Charlie Kirk. It's Jordan Peterson. It's Andrew Tate.
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Chapter 6: What myths surround California Governor Gavin Newsom's political identity?
and fifty one people so this mass exodus is wildly over belonging uh... accordingly i think it's interesting that highlight imf came out just a week ago showing california's the fourth largest economy in the world four point one trillion dollars four hundred twelve billion dollars of manufacturing forty one percent greater than the number two state number one a direct foreign investment two-way trade we dominate in every major industry in the united states there's not a state in this country
where we do not outperform in terms of that category, including hunting jobs, forestry jobs, including agricultural jobs, 150% larger than the next largest state.
And I think for me, the biggest thing that I want to communicate, Mark, to you and others about this notion of California being a failed state, besides having more Fortune 500 companies than we've ever had in over 15 years, that was Fortune just announced that, We also have more scientists, engineers, researchers, more Nobel laureates than any other state, the finest system of higher education.
And we've contributed $83.1 billion more than the federal government provided us. And I compare and contrast that not as a cheap shot, but as a point of reference, Texas took in $71.1 billion. A lot of mythology about California.
Okay. I don't want to minimize your list, but you also, I think, have more In-N-Out burgers than any other state. And we have more. That's important. All right. So for a big miss, I've known you a long time. We don't know each other well, but I've been so interested in you as a political figure.
You've done as mayor and as lieutenant governor of government, you've done a lot of interesting and important things. And I listen all day, almost every day to people back east, saying things about you, Democrats, Republicans, very political people, not political people, that just doesn't accord with my conception of you. So I'm going to run through four Gavin Newsom myths.
And you tell me if you're familiar with them. I bet you are. And just not in a defensive way, but just to tell the truth about what the reality is. And I'm hoping I can just show this to people rather than having to explain it myself every time. So one myth is that you're a crazy liberal, that you're so far to the left, you've governed as a liberal.
You've always been a liberal and that you've done a few things of late, like with Charlie Kirk, to try to pretend you're more moderate. I just it just that's not true. But explain to people you give yourself a label or not. What do you say about the myth? I say it's a myth that you're you're far to the left of the country.
well i was i was accused of being a conservative as mayor of san francisco like i continue to be content considered similarly as governor of california some of the balances budget that provided the biggest tax rebate in u s history eighteen point five billion dollars uh... that is consistently opposed state efforts to increase our wealth tax or income tax top line income tax I'm a pragmatist.
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Chapter 7: Why does Gavin Newsom say he's not a 'crazy liberal'?
Well, you were way out ahead of some other of your Democratic friends, including some Californians, on same-sex marriage. And there are some social issues, abortion rights. But there are other social issues, and there's one in the news this week, where you have said your party might be going too far, right?
Yeah, no, I mean, just as it relates to sex predators going after children. To me, it's just common sense. By the way, I thought it was common sense what I did in 2004 on same-sex marriage. And you're right, my party was the most vocal and critical against those actions. I didn't think in any way infringed on other people's rights. I thought it was the right thing to do.
The American people now have come to accept that. But look, I've long called balls and strikes, and I've always been a hardheaded pragmatist on issues. Again, yes, I haven't taken a backseat on many social issues as it relates to the values that I hold dear in embracing our diversity, celebrating our diversity. I know that's something that's verboten now.
And I call out people that belittle other people and talk down to people and play those kind of politics that I just, you know, I don't think is becoming of America.
Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth. I just want to put a button on this first myth. Is it fair to say that you think in some ways on economics, social issues, maybe issues related to immigration, not every issue, but on some issues, your party's gone too far to the left? Is that fair to say?
Absolutely. Look, you can't be pro-job and anti-business. At the same time, businesses can't thrive in a world that's failing. And that's my mindset. It's growth and inclusion. And it's always been that. Let's just state that it has 18% of the world's R&D. It's a point of deep pride. We dominate in AI. We dominate in innovation entrepreneurialism.
We've got to invest in those growth engines, and we've got to invest in those innovators at the same time.
All right. America, meet me at camera one. He's not a crazy liberal. The myth exposed, debunked. Second myth, and I'm just going to say it straight, and I know you've heard the first one. I don't even need to ask you. I know you've heard this one, too. You're an ambitious pretty boy. You're lightweight. Ted Cruz on this program called you the other day incandescently ambitious.
Coming from Ted, I appreciate that. That's amazing.
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Chapter 8: How does Governor Newsom view his potential 2028 presidential run?
Chapter 9: What are Gavin Newsom's thoughts on young men leaning conservative and Charlie Kirk's influence?
In fact, those two individuals, I've spent an extended period of time over the years talking about governance. By the way, Bill Clinton in particular is one of the things I think we're missing in our party right now is a little bit not just of community opportunity, but this notion of responsibility in sort of the lexicon of the DLC and what Bill Clinton provided in terms of that mindset.
And I think it's absolutely.
It's not my job to be your spokesman or to defend you. But folks, this is a myth. This is a myth. This is a serious person. And it shouldn't even have to be said. My only recommendation to you is maybe less product in your hair.
Jesus, here we go again. You and my mother.
Maybe gain 50 pounds like I did. Do something. Do something. All right. Another myth. This is number three. This will be easy to dispatch. Every day, you'll say, of course he's running for president. Of course. Right? Now, I'm not saying you won't. Yeah. But I know because I know you and I know people who know you. You might not. It's not like you've decided to.
I'm not trying to make news here because I know it's not a newsy answer. You might, but you're not bound to determine not only not to run in 28. My sense of you is you may never run, right?
By the way, I'm with you a thousand percent what you just said. A thousand, not a hundred percent. I might. I don't know. but I have to have a burning why, and I have to have a compelling vision that distinguishes myself from anybody else. Without that, without both, and I don't deserve to even be in the conversation, but I am someone that's trying, I'm trying to pursue the unknown.
I'm interested. I'm open to argument. I want to engage folks, and I want to learn. I want to iterate. I have an entrepreneurial mindset, and to the extent that brings me in the political conversation, I'm blessed by that, and to the extent it helps me leverage my day job as government, all the better.
But you have not in your head or said to anyone, I'm going to run. I'm going to run.
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Chapter 10: Is California experiencing a population exodus as some claim?
Mark, there's nothing I hate more than politicians answering this question and the BS. Ninety nine percent of the time, I almost one percent of the time they're actually being honest.
I almost try to be the one percent. It's a stupid question to try to get people to announce for president when they don't want to. I just try to put the myth to rest and we have. Last myth is the biggest one we've touched on a little bit, which is that if you did run for president or just as you think about your legacy as we head towards the end of your second and final term,
People say absolute failure, that the state has been a failure. Now, I've listened to you talk a lot about this. I've read a lot about it. We could spend five hours on it. One thing you've done that's really caught my attention, and I will say, honestly, bothered me a little bit, is that when there have been some issues, you've blamed the mayors or the federal government.
And you said, well, the mayor of San Francisco, your successor, not doing a good job on the streets. The previous mayor, mayor of L.A., didn't do a good job on fires. And then I've heard you blame Washington. Now, I'm not holding them blameless, but you ran for the job. You know full well what happens in Washington affects the governor. The mayors, you know, are the mayors. So.
Are you, what would you say you've not done, you, not the state, what have you not done as well as you would have liked to have done?
Well, let me just, because it's incredibly important to clarify, I've never criticized the mayor of L.A. for the fire response. Quite the contrary. I spent the day with her yesterday. We have been, we have been in lockstep. in terms of our work there. As it relates to the former mayor of San Francisco, the same. I provided unprecedented support.
What I criticized was the lack of urgency as it relates to the street population and what's happening with encampments and tents. And that was a broad statement across the state of California. As a former mayor, I thought I'm in a privileged position. State's vision, national vision, realized through states, but localism's determinative at the end of the day.
When it comes to housing and homelessness, it's the original sin in the state of California. The affordability challenge in this state, nimbyism in this state. We've been pounding 42 secret reform bills I've signed. We have a huge housing package this year. We've been deeply focused on getting things done. And no state has done more to address the homeless crisis than this state.
But at the end of the day, I'm not naive.
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Chapter 11: What is Gavin Newsom’s record and response to criticisms about his governorship?
Okay.
If she runs, and I don't know, and I know you, I share your point of view. You've been doing some interesting punditry from afar. I'm a little more close to it. And I can just, I can say your sources seem accurate from my perspective.
Yeah, I just I just I've said this all the time. She her Achilles heel. She doesn't like to make difficult decisions under pressure. I think she'd be afraid of losing, even though you think she'd win. And I don't know that she wants to be governor of California. It's a crazy thing. Sometimes people think, well, are they going to run for that office? They should want to do it.
People say to me all the time, should I run for Senate? I said, it doesn't seem to me you want to be a senator. So you're not sure she's going to run.
I honestly, by the way, I'm as close to the people around her than anybody. And to this moment, I would say the vast majority of us do not know, period. Right.
And would you advise her to run? Would you tell her it's a good job for her?
I would reflect what you just said. You have to have a burning why. And if you can't enunciate that, the answer is no. Why the hell would you want this job?
Who's the front runner if she doesn't run?
Difficult to know. I mean, there's a lot of folks in the race. And I mean, forgive me, I'm frankly focused on a lot of other things besides who the next governor is. I still got 18, 20 months. And so I'm going to run through the tape, 112-yard dash.
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Chapter 12: What does Gavin Newsom say about Kamala Harris’s chances in the California gubernatorial primary?
If the whole theory of the case is that this is supposed to be supply chains home, I would have been, you know, I would have immediately called that out. And so this whole, the whole theory of the case is being blown up. The original arguments around why we're doing tariffs and sort of this sort of ready, fire, aim approach to our allies and our trading partners.
So I don't know where the leverage is. And I think the only actual leverage are the markets. And I think that's the one thing that can move this administration. Thank God for the markets. Mother Nature hasn't impressed them on low-carbon green growth, but the markets certainly still last about 1,000.
I'm not going to press my luck and do the other foreign policy question. It could take too long, and I want to ask you one more thing. I'm grateful to you for your time. Leave aside politics, running for president or not, what are some of your unfulfilled professional ambitions? Not about your family. What are some of your unfulfilled professional ambitions?
I'm a professional. Look, I mean, for me, I'm a passionate entrepreneur. And so I still have a lot of business ideas that I was pursuing before I got in this racket called politics. I started right out of college with pen to paper, one part-time employee, Pat Kelly. I raised $175,000. I borrowed $7,500 from my dad, and I opened a little wine store at Greenwich and Fillmore in San Francisco.
I built that business, the restaurant, a few years later to 20-plus businesses, restaurants, hotels, four wineries. Today, I say that not to impress you, but to impress upon you passion for entrepreneurialism, a passion for entrepreneurs. And so for me, my professional ambitions, beyond being in public service, of which, by the way, I was inspired by Sarge Shriver,
Another reason we just announced our 16th lawsuit against Trump administration on these AmeriCorps cuts. He was the guy who started Vista Legal Aid to the Poor, probably a more influence in the last century than most presidents. And the impact of that, those cuts to me are profound, particularly here in California. So public service matters. But I also have a passion for entrepreneurialism.
Would you consider, after your term ends, becoming the CEO of my company, Two-Way, that creates authentic community around live conversations?
See, I'm potentially looking for a job in 20 months, so I'm not going to turn down anybody. So let's talk.
Come interview for the job because you are interested in using technology to create authentic community. You've done a lot, and that's what we do. So it's a possibility. I'm looking for a CEO like Bob Iger, and you're as close as I can think of. Is that it? I'm so grateful. So grateful to you for making time. I hope you'll come back.
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