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Origins - Inside Venture Capital, Hosted by a GP and an LP

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Activity Overview

Episode publication activity over the past year

Episodes

Showing 1-100 of 121
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Minisode: The Brutal Math Behind VC Consolidation

29 Apr 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Origins hosts Nick Chirls (GP, Asylum Ventures) and Beezer Clarkson (LP, LGT Capital Partners) unpack a recent conversation with David Clark, CIO of V...

Why Power Laws Still Drive Outperformance with VenCap’s David Clark

15 Apr 2026

Contributed by Lukas

What does patience look like today when the best companies take 10–15 years to exit, and is it still worth it to wait that long? Today’s episode o...

Minisode: Does the Data Match the Anecdotes?

24 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, and Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures, dig into their recent conver...

Venture’s Haves and Have-Nots with Dan Gray

10 Feb 2026

Contributed by Lukas

Dan Gray is a prolific thinker, writer and researcher in the VC world, who describes himself as best known for  “long walls of text on Twitter abou...

What Venture's Top Voices Expect Next in AI

21 Jan 2026

Contributed by Lukas

2025 was, undoubtedly, the year of AI. In the first episode of 2026 Beezer Clarkson, Partner at Sapphire Partners, and Nick Chirls, Partner at Asylum ...

Minisode: The Speed of Iteration in Venture

16 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, and Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures, dive into their recent conve...

Staying Small Despite Billion-Dollar Backings with Micah Rosenbloom

02 Dec 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Micah Rosenbloom is a Managing Partner at Founder Collective, a firm dedicated to seed investing and, crucially, to keeping their fund sizes below $10...

Minisode: What Early Stage Venture Can Learn from Crypto Traders

18 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, and Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures, dive into their recent conve...

Internet Capital Markets with Kyle Samani

12 Nov 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Kyle Samani is the Founder and Managing Partner of Multicoin Capital, a thesis-driven investment firm that invests in cryptocurrencies, tokens, and bl...

Minisode: Can LPs Diversify in an AI-Obsessed World?

28 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, and Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures, unpack their recent conversa...

Becoming AI Native with Benchmark’s Sarah Tavel

21 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

 Eight years after becoming the first female partner at Benchmark, Sarah Tavel recently took on a new role as Venture Partner that allows her more ti...

Minisode: Is It 2021 All Over Again?

07 Oct 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, and Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures, dig into their recent conver...

Fundraising as a Fund of Funds with Alex Edelson

16 Sep 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Alex Edelson’s Slipstream is a fund of funds that focuses on firms that are “difficult to find, evaluate and access.” Together with Beezer Clark...

Minisode: Curiosity, Chemistry, and Keeping Relevance Across the Partnership

26 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP is rejoined by Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures to unpack her recen...

Backing Outliers in Venture with Sunil Dhaliwal & Mike Dauber

12 Aug 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Sunil Dhaliwal founded Amplify in 2012, and was joined by his longtime friend and colleague Mike Dauber in 2014. Beginning as one of the first solo GP...

Minisode: Are Major Incumbents Finally at Risk in the Age of AI?

22 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins hosts Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures and Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, dig into their recent conver...

Merchant Banks: Venture’s Next Act with Will Manidis

08 Jul 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Before he sold his company to Veradigm, Will Manidis’s Science.io developed an AI model that allowed doctors to translate mountains of medical docum...

Minisode: Innovation Energy And the Future of Biotech

17 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins hosts Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures and Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, unpack their conversation wi...

Building The YC of Biotech with Zach Weinberg

03 Jun 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Zach Weinberg, co-founder and CEO of Curie.Bio, is redefining early-stage biotech investing with an operator’s mindset and a founder-first philosoph...

Minisode: How Novel Strategies Become the Venture Industry’s Standard

20 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins hosts Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures and Beezer Clarkson,  LP at Sapphire Partners and co-founder of OpenLP, unpack their conversation wi...

AI Agents Will Supercharge the Future of VC with Tomasz Tunguz

06 May 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Tomasz Tunguz, Founder of Theory Ventures, is widely recognized for his analytical approach to venture investing. Now, he’s building Theory with a p...

Minisode: Franchise Funds: Index Ventures & Picking Winners Early

22 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson sits down with her colleague Nate Leung, fellow LP and Partner at Sapphire Partners, to riff on  her recent conversation...

Inside the ServiceTitan IPO with Nina Achadjian

08 Apr 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Nina Achadjian is a Partner at Index Ventures, where she invests across seed, venture, and growth stages in AI, enterprise software, and vertical SaaS...

Minisode: Franchise Funds: Is Venture Broken?

25 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson sits down with her colleague Laura Thompson, fellow LP and Partner at Sapphire Partners, to riff on her recent conversati...

Franchise Funds: Is Being a VC Franchise the Ultimate Goal with Thomas Kristensen

11 Mar 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Thomas Kristensen, Partner at LGT Capital Partners, has decades of experience backing the top players in venture, but as an LP, doesn’t love the ter...

Revisiting Power Law VC Performance with David Clark

20 Feb 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Beezer Clarkson, LP at Sapphire Partners, revisits her conversation from 2023 with David Clark, Investment Director at VenCap International plc. In th...

Minisode: Franchise Funds: Grading Performance

22 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson sits down with her colleague Laura Thompson, fellow LP and Partner at Sapphire Partners, to unpack her recent conversatio...

Franchise Funds: Metrics To Be Extraordinary with Jessica Archibald

08 Jan 2025

Contributed by Lukas

Jessica Archibald is a GP and member of the Investment Committee at Top Tier Capital Partners, where she is co lead of the funds team and participates...

Minisode: Franchise Funds: Why do LPs & Founders Care?

17 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Origins host Beezer Clarkson sits down with her colleague Laura Thompson, fellow LP and Partner at Sapphire Partners, to discuss her recent conversati...

Franchise Funds: Becoming (and Remaining) One with Stephen Bluestein

10 Dec 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Stephen Bluestein has had an impressive career in Venture, beginning at Bessemer Venture Partners before moving to TCV, Light Street Capital, and the ...

Minisode: Building Google & Betting Big: Lessons from Wesley Chan

26 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures,  and Beezer Clarkson, LP at Sapphire Partners go deep into their recent conversation with Wesley Chan, the Co-Fou...

Finding Founders Who Will Change the World with Wesley Chan

13 Nov 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Wesley Chan is a true legend in Silicon Valley. He spent time at Microsoft and HP, and in 2002 he jumped to Google. There, he worked as Sergey Brin’...

Minisode: Seed vs Growth Investing - What Changes and What Stays the Same

15 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures,  and Beezer Clarkson, LP at Sapphire Partners, unpack their recent conversation with Jai Das, President + Partner...

Finding Pattern Breakers & Winners from Seed to Growth with Mike Maples and Jai Das

01 Oct 2024

Contributed by Lukas

With a few dozen software exits under his belt (including Box, Square, Mulesoft & JFrog), nobody knows enterprise investing like Sapphire Ventures...

Coming Soon to Origins…

24 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

A look at what’s to come on a brand new season of Origins, where we’ll dive into the VC ecosystem with the people who know it best, to learn how t...

Minisode: Jack Altman’s VC Career Arc and the Launch of Asylum Ventures

17 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Nick Chirls, GP at Asylum Ventures,  and Beezer Clarkson, LP at Sapphire Partners, go inside their recent conversation with Alt Capital’s Jack Altm...

From VC-backed Founder to Angel to Institutional Investor with Jack Altman

10 Sep 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Jack Altman of Alt Capital has led quite a life in Silicon Valley. He’s gone from angel investing to founding a venture-backed company (HR platform ...

Minisode: What’s the Real Value Add of VCs?

20 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Nick & Beezer go inside their recent conversation with Jason Shuman and Will Quist to discuss the right way to be a contrarian investor, how to do...

Being Non-Consensus and Right in VC with Jason Shuman & Will Quist

06 Aug 2024

Contributed by Lukas

What do Primary GP Jason Shuman and Slow Ventures Partner Will Quist have in common? At first glance, not much, given how differently their firms appr...

Endowment Investing with University of Chicago’s Joanna Rupp

27 Jun 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Joanna Rupp, Managing Director of Private Equity at the University of Chicago, sits down with Nick & Beezer to shine a light on the often opaque w...

The Three Body Problem of Venture Capital w/ Frank Rotman (CIO, QED Investors)

30 May 2024

Contributed by Lukas

Nick and Beezer sit down with Frank Rotman, a founding partner and CIO at QED Investors to talk about his early days as the chief credit officer of Ca...

Building a venture firm w/ Scott Kupor (a16z)

19 Mar 2024

Contributed by Lukas

In the first Origins episode of the year, ⁠Nick Chirls⁠ (Notation Capital) and ⁠Beezer Clarkson⁠ (Sapphire Partners) host Scott Kupor, a Manag...

Power Law VC Performance with David Clark (VenCap)

13 Dec 2023

Contributed by Lukas

In the last Origins episode of the year, Nick Chirls (Notation Capital) and Beezer Clarkson (Sapphire Partners) host David Clark, Investment Director ...

Q4 Market Predictions w/ Ed Sim (Boldstart) & Seyonne Kang (StepStone)

03 Oct 2023

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode of Origins, Nicholas Chirls (Notation) and Beezer Clarkson (Sapphire Partners) host Ed Sim, founder of Boldstart and Seyonne Kang, Par...

Navigating difficult markets w/ Adam Valkin, General Catalyst

23 Aug 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners and Nick Chirls of Notation host Adam Valkin, Managing Director of General Catalyst at their NYC office. Adam Val...

The family office episode - Nick & Beezer co-host Melissa Lucas, Your OCIO

19 Jul 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Melissa Lucas currently serves as the CIO for the investment vehicles of two extended families. She has decades of experience handling the unique inve...

Deep Dive on Series A - Nick & Beezer co-host Beth Ferreira, Firstmark

06 Jun 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Origins is a podcast about the VC and LP ecosystem, co-hosted by Nick Chirls of Notation and Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners. We're joined by...

LP Market Perspective - Nick & Beezer co-host Atul Rustgi, Accolade Partners

28 Apr 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Origins is a podcast about the VC and LP ecosystem, co-hosted by Nick Chirls of Notation and Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners. In this episode, we...

Investing in AI - Nick & Beezer co-host Dr. Lan Xuezhao

22 Mar 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Origins is a podcast about the VC and LP ecosystem, co-hosted by Nick Chirls of Notation and Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners. In this episode, we...

Nick & Beezer co-host David Tisch, Box Group

14 Feb 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Origins is a podcast about the VC and LP ecosystem, co-hosted by Nick Chirls of Notation and Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners. On this episode, we...

Nick (Notation) & Beezer (Sapphire) co-host Kanyi Maqubela (Kindred)

01 Feb 2023

Contributed by Lukas

Origins is a podcast about the VC and LP ecosystem, co-hosted by Nick Chirls of Notation and Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners. On this episode, we...

Venture market deep dive with Beezer Clarkson

20 Sep 2022

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of Origins, we sit down with Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners to discuss the current state of the VC and LP markets, given recent ...

Austin Clements, Slauson & Co.

15 Jun 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Austin Clements is a co-founder and managing partner at Slauson & Co., an early-stage venture capital firm whose mission is to democratize access to e...

Sapphire Partners hosts Jaclyn Hester, Foundry Group

09 Jun 2022

Contributed by Lukas

In this special episode of our #OpenLP podcast miniseries, Sapphire Partners’ Laura Thompson chats with Jaclyn Hester, Partner at Foundry Group, abo...

Accolade Partners hosts Santiago Santos

10 May 2022

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of Origins, Aram Verdiyan, partner at Accolade Partners, hosts Santiago Santos, one of the most well-respected crypto and NFT investor...

Dustin Rosen, Wonder Ventures

26 Apr 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Dustin Rosen is the founder and managing partner of Wonder Ventures, a top-tier pre-seed firm based in LA. He's been an early investor in companies li...

Accolade Partners hosts Chris Ebeling, Zed Run

05 Apr 2022

Contributed by Lukas

On this special episode of Origins, Marcos Veremis, partner at Accolade Partners, hosts Chris Ebeling, the Creative Director, Futurist & Co-Founder @ ...

Jeff Morris Jr., Chapter One

08 Mar 2022

Contributed by Lukas

Jeff Morris Jr. is the founder and Managing Partner of Chapter One. He was previously the VP of Product, Revenue at Tinder. In the role, Tinder became...

Sapphire Partners hosts Saul Klein of LocalGlobe and Latitude

03 Nov 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Sapphire Partners continues their #OpenLP miniseries takeover by hosting Saul Klein of LocalGlobe and Latitude. With decades of experience in the regi...

Sapphire Partners hosts Kim Lew, CEO of Columbia University's endowment

30 Sep 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Sapphire Partners continues their #OpenLP miniseries takeover by hosting Kim Lew, CEO and President of Columbia University’s endowment. During the c...

Sapphire Partners Hosts - Notation III and Beyond

24 Aug 2021

Contributed by Lukas

On this brand new season of Origins, we're passing the torch to our friends at Sapphire Partners to host an exciting new miniseries. Beezer Clarkson, ...

Chris Paik & Jordan Cooper, Pace Capital

20 Jan 2021

Contributed by Lukas

Chris Paik and Jordan Cooper are co-founders of Pace Capital, a new $150M fund focused on Series A investments. Chris was previously a co-founder of T...

Renata Quintini & Roseanne Wincek, Renegade Partners

15 Dec 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Renata Quintini and Roseanne Wincek are general partners and co-founders of Renegade Partners, a new venture capital firm investing at the "supercriti...

Matt Auxier, The University of Chicago

17 Nov 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Matt Auxier is a portfolio manager for The University of Chicago's private equity investments, focusing primarily on venture capital. He examines inve...

Sahil Lavingia and Steve Schlafman on new VC structures

13 Oct 2020

Contributed by Lukas

In this special episode of Origins, we discuss new VC fund structures with Sahil Lavingia, the founder of Gumroad and manager of one of the top rollin...

Lisa Edgar, Top Tier Capital Partners

23 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Lisa Edgar is a Managing Director and member of the Investment Committee at Top Tier Capital Partners. She focuses on manager selection, due diligence...

Frederik Groce, Storm Ventures & BLCK VC

09 Sep 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Frederik Groce is a Principal at Storm Ventures and a co-founder at BLCK VC. After finishing school, Frederik spent two years as CEO of Stanford Stude...

Alex Pall and Drew Taggart, The Chainsmokers + Mantis VC

11 Aug 2020

Contributed by Lukas

In this special episode of Origins, we interview Alex Pall and Drew Taggart of The Chainsmokers, one of the most successful artists and producers in t...

Josh Kopelman, First Round Capital

07 Jul 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Josh Kopelman is the co-founder of First Round Capital, a pioneering seed-stage venture capital firm. He's been an active entrepreneur and investor in...

Hunter Somerville, Greenspring Associates

24 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Hunter Somerville is a General Partner at Greenspring Associates and is responsible for the sourcing and due diligence efforts on fund, direct and sec...

Atul Rustgi, Accolade Partners

02 Jun 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Atul Rustgi is a Partner at Accolade, working across both early-stage venture and late-stage growth equity strategies. Prior to joining Accolade in 20...

Kanyi Maqubela, Kindred Ventures

13 May 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Kanyi Maqubela is a Managing Partner at Kindred Ventures. He previously served as a Partner at Collaborative Fund, where he was an early advisor to Ta...

Ciaran O'Leary, BlueYard

14 Apr 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Ciaran O'Leary is a co-founder and general partner at BlueYard, a thesis-driven early-stage venture capital firm based in Germany. In the past several...

Mark Suster, Upfront Ventures

03 Mar 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Mark Suster is the Managing Partner at Upfront. He previously was the founder & CEO of two successful enterprise software companies, the most recent o...

"Portfolio Construction" w/ Beezer Clarkson, Alda Leu Dennis and Trae Vassallo

28 Jan 2020

Contributed by Lukas

This is a special episode of Origins focused entirely on the concept of VC portfolio construction. We recorded this discussion as a panel with three g...

Chad Byers, Susa Ventures

07 Jan 2020

Contributed by Lukas

Chad Byers is a co-founder and partner at Susa Ventures, a seed-stage venture fund based in SF that has backed companies like Robinhood, Flexport, and...

Lo Toney, Plexo Capital

11 Dec 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Lo Toney is the founding managing partner of Plexo Capital, a new $42.5 million fund incubated inside of GV focused on making investments in seed-stag...

Fabrice Grinda, FJ Labs

01 Oct 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Fabrice Grinda is the founder of FJ Labs, a company co-creation and investment firm, focused on marketplace businesses. FJ Labs has invested in compan...

Paul Mace, Tufts University

10 Sep 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Paul Mace is the Director of Investments for Private Equity and Real Estate in the Tufts University Investment Office. He is responsible for evaluatin...

Beezer Clarkson hosts Anne Martin, CIO of Wesleyan University

06 Aug 2019

Contributed by Lukas

In this special episode of Origins, Beezer Clarkson of Sapphire Partners hosts Anne Martin, the Chief Investment Officer of Wesleyan University. Anne ...

Bryce Roberts, Indie VC

16 Jul 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Bryce Roberts is the founder of Indie VC, a 12-month program and venture fund designed to fund and support founders on a path to profitability. Before...

David Fauchier, Cambrial Capital

26 Feb 2019

Contributed by Lukas

David Fauchier is the co-founder of Cambrial Capital, an investment firm based in London deploying a thesis-driven fund of funds strategy focused on t...

Lindsay Larsen, UVIMCO

05 Feb 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Lindsay Larsen is a managing director at UVIMCO, which represents the University of Virginia's $9B+ endowment. At UVIMCO, Lindsay co-heads the endowm...

Manu Kumar, K9 Ventures

15 Jan 2019

Contributed by Lukas

Manu Kumar is the founder of K9 Ventures, a technology-focused Pre-Seed fund based in Palo Alto, California. K9 Ventures was the first "pre-seed" vent...

Conrad Shang, UTIMCO

18 Dec 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Conrad Shang is a Director at UTIMCO, The University of Texas and Texas A&M Endowment, where he leads the VC portfolio for one of the largest universi...

Zach Aarons, Metaprop

27 Nov 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Zach Aarons is a co-founder and partner at Metaprop, an early-stage venture firm and accelerator focused on real-estate related technology. Zach has ...

Sarah Anderson and Emily Geiger, Cintrifuse

30 Oct 2018

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of Origins, we interview Sarah Anderson and Emily Geiger, who are responsible for two critical components of Cintrifuse, a unique orga...

David Tisch, Box Group

09 Oct 2018

Contributed by Lukas

David Tisch is a founder and managing partner of Box Group, the most prolific angel and seed investing firm in NYC, where they're investors in compani...

Rob Mazzoni, TrueBridge Capital Partners

18 Sep 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Rob Mazzoni is a principal and one of the earliest members of the TrueBridge investment team, an alternative asset management firm founded in 2007 and...

Shan-Lyn Ma, Zola

21 Aug 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Shan-Lyn Ma is the co-founder and CEO of Zola, the fastest growing wedding registry and planning site in the U.S. Before Zola, Shan-Lyn was the chief ...

Mike Maples, Floodgate

24 Jul 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Mike Maples is the founding partner at Floodgate and has been on the Forbes Midas List since 2010. Before becoming a full-time investor, Mike was invo...

Ryan Nece, Next Play Capital

26 Jun 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Ryan Nece is a Managing Partner at Next Play Capital, a mission-driven co-investment and fund of funds focused on venture capital. He started his car...

Jeff Fagnan, Accomplice

15 May 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Jeff Fagnan is a founder of Accomplice and more recently Spearhead, in partnership with AngelList. Jeff is well known as a founding investor, working ...

Leah Busque, Fuel Capital

18 Apr 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Leah Busque is a General Partner at Fuel Capital, an early-stage venture firm based in SF. Before Fuel, she was the co-founder and CEO of TaskRabbit f...

Ro Gupta, Carmera

03 Apr 2018

Contributed by Lukas

Ro Gupta is the co-founder and CEO of Carmera, a street-level intelligence platform. The company's flagship product is CARMERA Autonomous Map, which d...

Christian Motzfeldt, Danish Growth Fund

13 Mar 2018

Contributed by Lukas

As CEO of the Danish Growth Fund since 2001, Christian Motzfeldt has been instrumental in building the new Danish ecosystem of entrepreneurship. Throu...

Nick Chirls and Alex Lines, Notation

20 Feb 2018

Contributed by Lukas

In this episode of Origins, Beezer Clarkson turns the tables and interviews Nick Chirls and Alex Lines of Notation. Having just closed Notation II, we...

Semil Shah, Haystack

23 Jan 2018

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of Origins, we sit down with Semil Shah of Haystack, an early-stage venture firm based in SF. Semil has a non-traditional background f...

Roland Reynolds, Industry Ventures

09 Jan 2018

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of Origins, we sit down with Roland Reynolds, a managing partner at Industry Ventures. Industry Ventures is a fascinating “full stac...

Bruce Ou, Grove Street Advisors

19 Dec 2017

Contributed by Lukas

On this episode of Origins, we sit down with Bruce Ou, a Managing Partner at Grove Street Advisors. GSA is a unique type of investment firm in that th...

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