Rep. Sarah McBride has found herself the target of GOP attacks since taking office in January. They've barred her from restrooms and misgendered her in Congressional hearings, but the freshman congresswoman has risen above it all. Now she's got a message for her fellow Democrats: politics only works when you win over people who disagree with you. McBride sits down with Jon and Lovett to discuss the literal and figurative dangers of being a main character, Democrats' purity complex, and whether the party has abandoned the only strategy for social change that actually gets results.For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [email protected] and include the name of the podcast.
Chapter 1: Who is Sarah McBride and what is her political journey?
And I guess I wonder how you're processing all that. Like how have your expectations of serving in Congress matched up with the reality of this moment that we're all living in right now?
Well, thank you for revealing that I was an insufferable young person. I mean, so were we.
It's a table of insufferable young people.
I broke the first rule of politics, which was to pretend like you just rolled out of bed one day and found yourself in elected office. I was really interested as a young person. But for me, I think it was rooted in... my own journey to authenticity, my own struggle with how I fit into this world.
I think as a young person, I felt alone and I worried whether the heart of this country was big enough to love someone like me. And I found hope in politics as a means to change that and as a means to build a kinder more inclusive, fair world. And so I got involved. And I think in many ways, that journey into politics prepared me for this moment.
Because I think right now, people across this country are wondering whether the heart of this nation is big enough to love them too. And I think similar to how I felt as a young person, we're facing a crisis of hope.
So in many ways, it's prepared me for this moment because it's allowed me to understand where so many people right now in this moment are, feeling like you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, feeling like you are unsure whether our politics could ever work for you.
But it has also left me, I think, fundamentally still hopeful because I have been able to bear witness to change that once seemed so impossible to me as a kid that it was almost incomprehensible, not only become possible, become a reality. Now, this is not the moment that I would have hoped to be entering Congress in. I hoped to be entering Congress –
at a time where we would be doing what I was able to do in the Delaware State Senate, which was pass paid family and medical leave and expand access to childcare and make healthcare more affordable. And obviously, that's not the reality that I'm entering in writ large. And then specifically, I'm entering in what is truly a perfect storm for a person like me. It's been hard. It's been...
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Chapter 2: How has Sarah McBride experienced challenges as the first transgender member of Congress?
Yeah. We wanna talk about sort of your day-to-day experience, but I think something we struggled with, and I'm wondering if you've struggled with this. When we started this company, it was right after Trump wins. And everything about what we were talking about was how you fight back
from behind, that we're gonna defeat Trump, we're gonna come back stronger, we're gonna learn the lessons of it, and we're gonna build something better. I think we all grew up in a more optimistic time around politics, and even Barack Obama would talk about, there are setbacks, take a step back, and then there's two steps forward.
I do sometimes wonder if we were all a bit ill-prepared for a moment of genuine backsliding. That no, this isn't about just arresting this so we can keep this N-word march forward, but we are in a struggle right now that's not about progress, but about just protecting the country from a terrible slide into autocracy, into radicalism. And I'm wondering if that's,
caused you to think back on some of your priors to change how you talk about politics?
Yes and no. I think that this is obviously an existential moment. There is very real risk that this country backslides into perhaps at best an illiberal democracy. And I also think we have to recognize that the way to stop that is to change public opinion. And we have limited levers at our disposal, but we still have the lever of public opinion.
And I do think that there are lessons from our politics that remain true in how we change public opinion. Because I think one problem that we have had over the last several years, and look, we are not in this moment because of us. We are in this moment because of Donald Trump and a sustained right-wing disinformation and misinformation campaign.
And I also think over the last few years, we as a party, as a progressive movement, lost the art of social change. We became so consumed with being pure and right. We rightfully responded to the abuse of people's grace, but we overcorrected and we eliminated grace from our politics. And I think that We have to recognize that in order to stop this, we have to win people back over.
I think voters ask two fundamental questions. One is, do you like me? The second is, what do you think? What are your positions? They don't care about that second question if they can't answer that first question to their satisfaction. And I do think that we have... I think we did delude ourselves.
I think one of the priors that I have checked is I think I fell into a camp that overestimated how far we had come, that overestimated the sort of cultural victory of the left. I think that prior I have changed. The prior that I have not changed is that there is an art to politics, there is an art to building a coalition that I think we lost.
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Chapter 3: What is Sarah McBride's perspective on the current political climate and backsliding?
And even beyond that, we shouldn't shy away from fights. We should just fight them in a way that meets people where they are. So let's talk about what's happening on immigration, and let's make it not just about the folks who are being sent off, but let's also make it about voters.
Because if they can do this to any number of folks who are here legally or who are undocumented, if there is no process, that means they can do it to you, they can do it to me, and none of us are safe. That might not have been an acceptable sort of path just a couple of years ago in terms of messaging, right?
Similarly, we can say in the same breath that we don't have to choose between securing our border and protecting due process and that we are a party that wants to secure our borders. A couple of years ago, we couldn't say that. I think that's a lesson learned that we can fight, but we can fight smart. I also think, and this is something that I've been thinking a lot about, because I do think
There's a lot of conversation about how Donald Trump breaks the rules and Democrats play by the rules. And I think that there's truth to that, right? I think clearly Donald Trump breaks rules that he's held to and we hold ourselves back. And I also think the reality is that there are two different standards for the parties.
And I've been thinking about how do you fight back against Trump in a smart way, sort of in a writ large, because we are so susceptible to sort of this Trump derangement syndrome dynamic. We've been screaming about democracy and rights and the rule of law for so long. And clearly this country voted for someone who incited an insurrection.
And I've been thinking about how do we fight smart in a macro way? And how do we recognize that there are two different standards for the parties? And those two different standards make a lot more sense when you recognize that they are just the replication of sexism and misogyny. The Democratic Party is the woman of politics and the Republican Party is the man of politics.
It's why Donald Trump can scream and yell and people see him as strong and why when we scream and yell, we're seen as hysterical and shrill. It's why Donald Trump can hate and insult more than half of this country.
Because we tolerate deadbeat dads, but Democrats can't say anything about any voters that impugns their motives and their good faith because a mom has to love every single one of her children. And so I've been thinking about how do you grapple with that reality? That is a real double standard. We can't pretend that it doesn't exist. Marginalization doesn't stop in politics.
We recognize it exists in our individual lives systemically. It exists in our politics. And so we have to grapple with the world as it is to change it. And I've been thinking about how does a woman successfully push back, you know, navigate a workplace, a world where so often her passion is held against her. And the socially acceptable path
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Chapter 4: Why does Sarah McBride believe Democrats need to win over people who disagree with them?
So I do – when people are like complaining about that, I'm like, yeah, well, we can't – then we'd just be hypocrites.
Right, right, right. I mean – I mean you are 100 percent right that we want a rules – the rule of law. We want basic common decency and we want a government that provides equality under the law for every person. And even if that weren't true, we would have to grapple with the double standard.
Yeah, well, yeah, we're playing games against cheaters. We are trying to prove to people that it's a game worth playing, right? We can't cheat too. Let's break it. Give us an example of this. I'm interested in this. Democrats are being treated like women and Republicans are being treated like women.
Man, one issue that I think where it's this is you see a classic like a lot of kind of no, no, we shouldn't focus on that. We need to focus on the economy to focus on tariffs. We shouldn't focus on, say, the president attacking private universities and trying to become basically dean of Harvard and dean of Princeton is how would you now let's let's test this new way of talking about it.
It's your idea. Yeah. You're here. You're trying to make people understand how dangerous it is that Donald Trump is coming after basic academic freedom, but you're worried it's not going to resonate with people. How do you talk about it?
Look, I think. One, as with all of these actions that we're seeing against, whether it's immigrants, whether it's against institutions, right, they are picking on the most unpopular, right, the most vulnerable. They're picking on people who are easy targets. And I do think in this in this instance. Look, I'm talking from a macro level, right?
Like, I think we should be, when we're talking about the attacks of the administration, let's talk about that they're stealing from farmers. Let's not make it Donald Trump. But when we're going in on those issues, when we have to go in on and respond to what is a blatant attempt to silence and intimidate people, I do think you have to go back to what we were talking about before, which is that
This isn't – if they can do it here, they can do it to you. If they can do it here, they can do it anywhere. If they can do it to this institution, they can do it to my constituents. I don't think it's a fundamental change in the fights we pick. I don't think it's a fundamental change in the arguments we're making.
I do think it is a fundamental change in the main character in the story that we're telling. And the main character in the story that we tell so often as Democrats is Donald Trump. And I think we can do a better job by making the main character our constituents. That doesn't mean that every single talking point and every single issue suddenly becomes, well, they're attacking Harvard.
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Chapter 5: How does Sarah McBride compare the double standards faced by Democrats and Republicans?
Nice to know you. There is a way to, again, fight hard and fight smart. There's a way of – I always think about a political leader – should be in front of public opinion. We are not completely without agency in shifting and shaping public opinion. But we do have to be within proximity of public opinion. We have to be within arm's reach.
Because if we get too far out ahead, we lose our grip on the public and we are no longer able to pull them along with us. And I think you've got some people who want to be so far out ahead because it plays well on social media because they feel viscerally good about themselves that they lose their grip and they can't pull them along.
And then you've got other people who are so scared to be even an inch in front of public opinion that they hide within public opinion and hope that no one notices.
Do you think? This is a generational thing. And by that, I mean not old and young, but like our generation. Like I feel like we were all – and you're younger than us, of course. But we all came of age in the Obama presidency. And I think a lot of what you're saying, what we're saying, I think we learned from watching him and growing up in that time.
And I always think that we're in an interesting spot where people younger than us, younger Gen Zers, might not understand or are frustrated with the idea of not being too far ahead of public opinion. And then people older than us are like, no, no, no, you can't lead on any of this stuff.
I think that is probably – that's probably right, that we are a byproduct of witnessing firsthand – Look, Barack Obama is still popular, even in our politics. Barack Obama is still popular for a reason. His approach to politics is still popular.
And, you know, one of the things that frustrates me as I navigate some of these issues and try to provide a glimpse into my approach to changemaking, because I fundamentally agree with the goals of the progressive movement. And I think that you have to be strategic in how you pursue those goals.
And I think, you know, we've got a lot of folks who don't realize that Barack Obama opposed marriage equality for most of his political career. I mean, he kind of, like, he supported it, then he changed his position, and then he supported it again. Yeah.
Where would we have been as a party or for that matter, where would the gay rights movement have had been if they excommunicated John Kerry for not being in support of marriage equality? If they excluded both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in 2007 and 2008 for not being in favor of marriage equality? Where would we have been? And now, though, the mentality is if we were replicating that now.
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Chapter 6: How should Democrats balance fighting for principles and broadening their coalition?
And that's the art of social change that I feel like we've lost over the last couple of years.
There's been a lot of talk about sort of the generational split in the Democratic Party. You're 34, which in Congress makes you a child.
Basically a fetus. And that is the only way Republicans will acknowledge my rights.
Some of it is about age. Some of it's about age. Some of it's about style and strategy. Do you feel that split among your colleagues? Do you think it matters? I...
I do think that there is a range in skill with certain media and a range of style and approach. But I also don't think it's exclusively that. And I also think that we benefit from a range of messengers, right? There are a lot of people on social media and we should be there. And there are folks who do watch the nightly news and do read the newspaper.
And yes, they are overwhelmingly favoring us, partly because they're watching traditional media and they're getting our message. And that's where we have exclusively been. And partly because they're predisposed to be Democrats, college educated, all of those things. But I mean, I think we benefit from a range of messengers and a range of tactics and a range of strategies.
I don't want every single member of Congress to be employing the same strategy, right? Whether that's... The strategy of someone who is just talking on MSNBC or just talking to the New York Times or the strategy of someone who's just out there killing it on TikTok, right? And so there is a range. I think that's a good thing.
And I think that some of us can get better at certain parts of that and we can be more intentional about how we navigate all of the different diversified media areas. And the ways we do it. But I don't want everyone to do the exact same strategy. And I think, again, we sort of shoot ourselves in the foot by demanding that everyone be AOC and Bernie. I am so glad they're doing what they're doing.
But I also want someone who's, like, going into the senior center and just having, like, a conversation in – you know, about social security with their- They don't need to do a TikTok dance while they're there. Yes, right? And that's actually, the problem is that we've like, we've tried to universalize this approach and it gets pretty cringe. Yeah.
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Chapter 7: What lessons does Sarah McBride draw from past social change movements like marriage equality?
And I think some people need to recognize that when I, just to be frank, when I talk for an hour, I mean, in this interview, I'm obviously like, we're talking, I'm saying the word trans a lot more, but like if I was out there giving a speech for an hour, And I spend 59 minutes talking about the economy and spend one minute talking about trans people.
People will go, there she goes again, only talking about trans issues. And that's just – that is the reality, right? That is the double standard. And that is the unique double standard that I face as a trans person. And so –
Part of my challenge is figuring out how to stay true, how to speak out for trans people on trans rights in ways that are true to my values and true to my principles, and also don't give the right wing this capacity to consistently reframe me as someone who is focused on one set of issues at the expense of all issues. And again, I'm not always gonna get it right,
I have to give myself some grace on this. I would hope some folks would give me that grace too, because I have tried to look for examples of people who have had similar experiences.
And I have yet to find an example of someone coming into Congress as a first when the identity that makes them a first is at the center of political discourse and the district that they represent isn't significantly or predominantly made up of that identity.
Right, we still haven't figured out how to make a district of trans people. And once we do, then we'll be, boy, things will be great. Well, you know, you asked this rhetorically because I think, and I think it's right to ask, why are they so focused on it? But I think it's worth thinking about why they're so focused on it. And you made this point that, you know, people can understand love, right?
But they have trouble understanding what it's like to be trans. I do think one of the reasons they're so focused on it is because transness does, call into question some assumptions about gender roles that make them very uncomfortable. And you talked about how AOC would have, if it was someone else, they might've been criticized for making it about cisgender women.
But I think that calls out the issue here, right? Because there is a connection between their discomfort with trans people and their desire to protect kind of traditional gender norms. I noticed when, and you've said you regretted saying this, but when you were misgendered in that committee hearing, and then you said, Madam Chair, right?
That gets obliterated because the two men start arguing as if you weren't there. And I've just never seen you treated more like a woman in your whole life. And I just wonder if you could just, if you've thought about that.
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Chapter 8: How does Sarah McBride view the generational and strategic differences within the Democratic Party?
And any kind of concession or any kind of embrace of anyone who believes that is just fueling that.
Yeah.
And how...
First off, I'm not talking about electing anti-trans people to public office, right? Like I'm not talking about nominating someone who's throwing trans people under the bus. I'm talking about a tent of voters who are still on a journey. And again, I'm not saying any of this is fair, right? I'm not saying it always feels good.
But like I said before, we clearly were not in this spot because we weren't correcting people and shaming people and excommunicating people enough. I think what happens, what human nature is, so if you're 90% with someone, but we excommunicate you because of 10%. The right's very good about saying, well, welcome on in, right? Welcome on in. You're being oppressed by the left.
You're being silenced by the left. You're being punished by the left because of your, quote, common sense. Welcome into our club. We'll look past the 90%. And then you go into that club. And then human nature is you start to then adopt those policies and those beliefs too. And instead of being against us on 10% and with us on 90%, then you flip to being against us on 90%, maybe with us on 10%.
That is human nature. And, you know, we can continue to shed allies all the way until we have an exclusive morally pure club at the gulag we've been sent to. And it won't even need to be that big. Right. It'll have a cap on 29% basically. Yeah. I mean, how are we going to defend anyone, including trans people, if...
We don't include a portion of the people in the 70% who oppose trans participation in sports consistent with our gender identities. The math just doesn't add up. And I'm not saying we should nominate those people. I'm not saying we should change our votes on blanket bans that are both invasive and treat trans experience like it's one size fits all and every trans person is exactly the same.
But when we're talking about an electorate, We have to be willing to have people in our coalition who are not all the way there, not only to win, but if we want to be in conversation with people to ultimately get them to our side on all of the issues.
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