Donald Trump insists he has the right to render people to a foreign prison even though the courts say otherwise, and Democrats dig in for a critical fight. From El Salvador, Senator Chris Van Hollen briefs Dan on his effort to get answers about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Then, Jon and Dan look at the latest targets of Trump's retribution tour, most notably Harvard, his threats to fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell, and Elon Musk's ultra-creepy project to populate Earth with a "legion" of his own offspring. Then, Tommy sits down with Maryland Congressman Jamie Raskin, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, about how he's trying to push back on Trump's defiance of the courts. For a closed-captioned version of this episode, click here. For a transcript of this episode, please email [email protected] and include the name of the podcast.
Chapter 1: What is the controversy surrounding Trump's renditions to El Salvador?
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. On today's show, we're going to talk about the Democrats fighting back against the Trump regime's illegal renditions to a foreign torture dungeon.
And Dan just spoke to Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen, who's in El Salvador trying to get answers about Kilmar Obrego Garcia, one person the government has admitted sending to the prison by mistake. We'll also get into Trump's latest targets for retribution, colleges and universities, most notably Harvard. The president is also threatening to fire Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell.
We'll talk about whether he can or will. And in case you didn't think Elon Musk was creepy enough, there's a shocking new Wall Street Journal story about the billionaire's, quote, baby-making project. Yeah, that's right.
Then later in the show, Tommy talks to Congressman Jamie Raskin, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, about how Democrats are trying to push back on Trump's defiance of the courts. Big show. But let's start with what's keeping many of us up at night, at least me. Our government is disappearing people to a dungeon in El Salvador. They don't get a trial.
They don't get any contact with a lawyer or their families. They may never leave alive. And Trump says he's looking into sending American citizens there next. He said, quote, he would love to do it. Our courts are trying to stop this. Since our last show, D.C.
Chief District Judge James Boasberg announced that he will start looking into whether people in the administration should be held in criminal contempt for their refusal to abide by his order to halt these renditions under the Alien Enemies Act.
Meanwhile, the disappearance that's attracted the most attention is Kilmar Obrego-Garcias, primarily because the government admitted to the Supreme Court that they sent him to the torture dungeon by mistake. But Trump is so far refusing the court's order to facilitate Garcia's release. He was asked about this again on Thursday in the Oval. Here's what he said.
Will you take steps to return Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the United States and put him in front of a judge?
Well, I'm not involved in it. I'm going to respond by saying you'll have to speak to the lawyers, the DOJ. I've heard many things about him and we'll have to find out what the truth is.
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Chapter 2: Who is Kilmar Abrego Garcia and why is his case significant?
He's an illegal alien, and I'm sick of the liberal media saying that he's a Maryland man. He's not a Maryland man. He's a guy from El Salvador
Maybe he's not a terrorist, but he's a potential terrorist. He's a terrorist watch list person.
He could be a terrorist. Any of us could be terrorists, I guess. That's why it's going to be a very long watch list. Yeah, a long watch list. A few hours before we recorded this, we got another ruling in this case, this time from a three-judge panel at the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. This is their second ruling, by the way, at the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals.
This one, they ruled that the government has to comply with a lower court's order, that they show the steps they're taking to get Abrego Garcia out of prison. Here's the key line from the judge who wrote the opinion, a conservative Reagan appointee who was joined by the other two judges. Quote, it is difficult in some cases to get to the very heart of the matter.
But in this case, it is not hard at all. The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order. Further, it claims in essence that because it has rid itself of custody, that there is nothing that can be done.
This should be shocking not only to judges, but to the intuitive sense of liberty that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear. It's a real barn burner of an opinion. I would encourage everyone to read the whole thing. Dan, any sense of what happens next here now that we are in this constitutional crisis? I know we've said it before. It sure feels like one.
If this isn't a constitutional crisis, I don't know what is.
You're exactly right. This is the moment. We are not 100 days into the Trump presidency yet, and we are headed towards a massive collision between the judicial and executive branches of our country, the results of which will, I think, affect our democracy for generations to come.
Just the idea the judicial branch exists as a check and a balance on executive to ensure that the president is not king. And if we lose that at a time in which the Congress is controlled all by the president's party, all of whom seem to have never read a constitution and don't care either way, then Trump has unlimited power. This is where we're heading. Will Trump step back from the brink?
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Chapter 3: What legal actions have been taken regarding the renditions?
Will anyone in American society speak up if he operates in pure defiance of these court orders? Because this is where it comes to. Ultimately, if Judge Boasberg decides that someone has to be put in jail because they're held in contempt, the U.S. Marshals have to put that person in jail. Who controls the U.S. Marshals? Donald Trump.
Yeah. Pam Bondi. Who seems to be a very independent voice.
Yes.
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Apparently, Bosberg talked about appointing a special prosecutor, which a judge has the power to do if DOJ is conflicted or refuses to go along with contempt proceedings. Right. But again, once you appoint the special prosecutor, the special prosecutor does their thing.
Eventually, you get back to needing to rely on the marshals if someone's going to jail or if someone's not paying the fine they've been given or someone's not doing what the judge orders. And that's what the executive has the power there, right? So this is why it's very, very dicey. I mean –
I just want to the strategy being employed by the Trump White House now and the right wing media and all of their goons and all their friends. it's important to highlight what they're doing. And to me, it's even, their response to this is even more disturbing than what happened in the first place.
Because what they're trying to do is, when they were in court, they never offered evidence to prove that this guy is MS-13, right? They never offered evidence, all the stuff they're saying now, like, oh, well, there was a, you know, his wife years ago,
tried to get a restraining order against him because of domestic violence, and then she dropped it, and she has since said that they have their rough patch and they're great now and everything. None of this was introduced in court. There's still no criminal charges. There's still no solid evidence that the DOJ has provided any of these courts, right?
But what they're doing is now they're trying it in the court of public opinion, and they're trying to say that... This guy that you want to make some as some martyr. Right. Like that. He's he's the he's the hero for Democrats now. He's really just a bad guy. And they think that if they can get people to just believe he's a bad guy, what do you care? Why do you need him back? Then that's enough.
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Chapter 4: What challenges did Senator Chris Van Hollen face visiting El Salvador?
Chapter 5: What are the conditions and human rights concerns in the El Salvador prison?
And it also seems clear that the Trump administration has not asked- for him to be returned? You know, it sort of felt in the meeting with Bukele that, well, we can't, it's up to him. He doesn't want to do it. So, you know, that's the end of the matter. But they also haven't asked, right? There's no evidence that they have done anything to facilitate, correct?
Well, that's absolutely right. I mean, the first question I asked of the American embassy team here has, has Washington, has the Trump administration given you any instructions to help facilitate his release? And the answer was no.
Obviously, in clear violation of the Supreme Court, the Fourth Circuit just weighed in on this. Have you had a chance to see that opinion?
I have a very strong opinion where they said essentially they backed up the federal district court judge and said that this violation of due process by the Trump administration goes to the very heart and foundation of our constitution, a total violation of the due process rights. And they said, I'm reading here that we, which should be shocking.
All of us to also listen to the Trump administration's claim that since he's already left the country, they have no obligation to get him back. I mean, they admitted they admitted in federal court that they had erroneously abducted him and taken him to another prison.
And instead of fixing the problem, the Trump administration fired the lawyer who told the truth in court, fired or put on administrative leave.
One of the theories, other than just pure cruelty about why the Trump administration is so unwilling to address what is their own admitted error, is that if Kilmar were to come home, he could talk about what he saw in that prison, which is notorious for torture, starvation, absolute violations of human rights. Do you assume that to be the case as well?
I think the Trump administration wants to cover up all of their illegal activity and wrongdoing. That can certainly be a part of it. But they're lying through their teeth every day about this case and trying to fool Americans as to what it's about. What this is about is stripping an individual of his rights to due process. And if you can do this for this individual,
The rest of us watch out because what bullies do is they pick first on the most vulnerable. And that's essentially what the Fourth Circuit just said today.
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Chapter 6: How are Democrats responding to Trump's rendition policies and what political implications exist?
So for example, when Jared Kushner's dad bought that building so that Jared Kushner could go to Harvard, he got to write that off on his taxes. And so they would owe more money and they'd be able to raise less money. And now the question is, can they actually do that? The president does not have unilateral authority to do it, although the IRS are the ones who
decide whether someone has tax-exempt status, there is a pretty narrow statutory definition for what you cannot do to retain your tax-exempt status. And it's a certain amount of political lobbying and becoming a private, you know, profiteering.
And so theoretically, in a world where there were rules and norms and court decisions abided by, they would have to prove that Harvard did something to violate their tax status on those very narrow statutory grounds. And so the second one happened, which I would find it hard to imagine that Harvard did anything like that. It can't be we didn't like their response to the Gaza protests.
It cannot be a broad, unsubstantiated allegation of anti-Semitism. It cannot be political speech. It cannot be bias.
Yeah, which Trump has already discarded their defense there on anti-Semitism because Trump was like, also, they're just so liberal. They're just too liberal.
But none of those things – you cannot do this on First Amendment grounds. That is very clear in case law that you cannot take away their tax status because you do not like what they say in a world where there are norms and laws and people – in court decisions, people abide by them.
It doesn't seem like they're going to stop with Harvard either on this. There's a lot of rumors and concerns that they're going to go after people with 501c3 status, nonprofits. Trump was asked about it today again when he was signing some EOs. And he said he's mentioned CRU, Citizens for Responsibility of Ethics in Washington. He talked about them. He talked about some climate groups.
So I think there's more of this coming. And, again, like good for Harvard for standing up. I saw that Stanford did the same thing, Northwestern. So I think that like Harvard standing up is hopefully inspiring. We were talking about this on last episode, hopefully inspiring other colleges to stand up as well and not be Columbia.
Well, I mean, Columbia had learned the lesson pretty quickly since they caved and then Trump immediately demanded more from them.
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Chapter 7: What are Trump’s other political targets and threats beyond renditions?
Chapter 8: What role do public opinion and media coverage play in this political fight?
So that would – real fears of financial crisis is sparking global recession there. But then also – The reason he wants to fire him, as he said on True Social, is because he wants Powell to cut rates. The reason Powell is not cutting rates more is because he's worried about inflation, sparked in part because of Trump's policies like tariffs. And so if you bring someone in –
And during a time of possibly growing inflation and have them cut rates, you're going to lead to more inflation and to be deeply damaging to our economy and the world. And so that's what happens. It puts there. The interesting question here is like Trump obviously wants to bully him out. Like that's the easiest path.
Just force him to resign like he did Christopher Wray and some other people within the government. If he wants to fire him, it is believed he does not have the power to do that. that the Fed has independence.
But what not just Trump, but the right has wanted forever is to test the idea of the unitary executive theory, the idea that Trump has control over the entire executive branch, including independent agencies, including the Fed. And so this would be, if he fired him, probably be stopped. It would go to the Supreme Court.
And then we would test this big case, which would have massive implications for the balance of power in this country.
Do you think maybe Jerome Powell just needs to read The Art of the Deal? That would set him straight. Like everyone else in America, but we're required to do so before too long. I know there is, you know, and I do think there's a good chance that the Supreme Court could rule on some of these cases that Trump has more power over these independent agencies than we thought.
The law is pretty explicit around the Fed that the Fed chair can only be fired for cause. for malicious behavior or whatever. I don't know. There's a certain standard there.
I guess the Supreme Court could say that law is just unconstitutional that was passed by Congress, but it does seem like they have a little more insulation at the Fed than they do in some of these other independent agencies, which are no longer independent. They would need a majority to adopt the idea of a unitary executive. Yeah.
So as we've been talking about Trump's attempts to trample on the courts and the universities and the Fed chair, some of you might be thinking, isn't there another branch of government that's supposed to have some power here? Indeed, there is. It's called Congress, Dan. What? I haven't heard about that in a while.
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