Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hi friends, Padraig O'Tooma here. Thanks very much for listening to Poetry Unbound. In between Poetry Unbound seasons, and we have season 11 that'll start later in 2026, we have a whole host of interviews that I've done with poets over the last two years. Poetry Unbound in conversation, we call them.
I've loved the opportunity to talk to poets about their craft, how they see the world through the lens of poetry, and what this art form does for them. These Poetry Unbound in Conversation episodes deepened my curiosity about language and art. I trust they will for you too. Today you'll be hearing not from one poet, but two.
First, you'll be hearing from the priest, teacher and poet Rachel Mann about her most recent collection, Eleanor Among the Saints, which offers meditations on Eleanor John Reichner, a 14th century trans woman, a seamstress, sex worker and religious figure.
You'll also hear from the brilliant writer, broadcaster and teacher Yomi Shoda about his debut collection, Mannerism, where he interrogates the biography of Caravaggio, the 17th century Baroque painter. I interviewed Rachel Mann and Yomi Shoda in March of 2024 at the Stanza Poetry Festival in St. Andrews in Scotland. Yomi and I were on stage. Rachel joined us via video link.
A special thanks to the staff, volunteers and attendees at the Stanza Poetry Festival, especially Ryan Van Winkle and Susie Kirk-Dimitru. Thanks as well to Rachel Mann and Yomi Shoda, as well as their publishers, Carconet and Penguin Press. Welcome to Poetry Unbound in Conversation. Here I am with Rachel Mann and Yomi Shoda. Thanks very much, Ryan, and good morning, everybody.
It's lovely to have you here. Thanks to Ryan, as well as to Susie Kirk, Dimitriou and James Boyer-Smith, everyone at Stanza here in St Andrews in Scotland, all the volunteers, everybody who gives so much time to make this an extraordinary poetry festival. I've wanted to come to this festival for years, so I was delighted to have the opportunity to come across.
I'm Padraig O'Tooma from On Being, and we're going to be having some conversations today with two extraordinary poets. Yomi Shoday, who's sitting near me here, and also then Rachel Mann, who'll be joining us via video link. What we'll do is hear some poems from Rachel and then I'll have a conversation with her. And then we'll hear some poems from Yomi and have a conversation with him.
And then we'll have a conversation together, all three of us. So Rachel Mann, we're going to bring her up on the screen. Let me introduce her. She is a priest and a writer and a broadcaster, the author of 13 books. And those books span fiction and literary criticism and theology and commentary and poetry. She's a visiting teaching fellow at the Manchester Writing School.
And her most recent collection of poetry, titled Eleanor Among the Saints, was published by Carconet in January 2024. Andrew Macmillan wrote this about the book. Nobody else could have written this. Poems formed in the space where divinity, the body, trans identity and history fold together.
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Chapter 2: What themes do Rachel Mann and Yomi Ṣode explore in their poetry?
So I'm going to read some poems from the new collection. starting off with some poems from the section called Eleanor Among the Saints. This is a book which seeks to recover a trans woman, Eleanor Reikner, from obscurity, a woman who lived in the late Middle Ages, a seamstress, a sex worker, someone who, as a trans person myself, I find great solidarity with.
The opening poem makes reference to a Hebrew word, masake, or masaket. It means literally warp and weft, but it also means an intense focus of meaning. Eleanor, in the beginning, sew me, sew me weird, stitch me fingers, teeth, my lids and legs too, sew me new, together, apart, stitch me skill and fright,
Sew me not dolly, not plaything, but monster, thing of nightmare, all agency, free finally of what you'd make me. Sew me into escape, oh god of thread, shoddy scrap. You know, you know, text is textile, texture, text us. You know all conjugations, the parts and trips of speech, all the fibers of the book, the stitching and snipping, all ways a world gets from there to here. Assemble me kind.
Assemble me wild. Read me insane and lovely and never afraid of clash. Unpick me old, spin me a yarn worthy of queer. I am story queen, myth-mad weirdo.
Chapter 3: How does Rachel Mann's work reflect on historical figures?
Like the rabbis say, make me masake. Loom me into lore, woven from readings and discards. I do not care for making sense. I could be all schmatology. Construct me dress, show off fucking haute couture. As if I was scripture, Tanakh, worthy of that much care. Construct me weird and kind. Leave it to me to strip off when I'm ready. I shall run wild, naked as I dare, out into sober streets.
This book comprises a lot of re-imaginings of Eleanor in different times and places. This, I guess, weaves a little bit of my own story into her. Eleanor dreams. Boy again. Gangles, spider legs, all elbow and joint. I'm shrunk. I cycle capillary, body map, my own, my own BMXer tricking the pipes, all red, a festival of oxygen and iron, my teeth blackened edgeland.
Through long veins, miles of vein, I go. No end. Will there ever be end? There are centuries of cells, archives of self no one will ever see. And still on pedal, no God. I am near clogged. O Mary of the long miles, pray for me. Grant me space enough. O Christ of the flowing blood. Eleanor, as a 16-year-old murdered trans girl, what is known? Safe is a conditional. Natural is easy, oh so.
I am not restricted to your version. You did not need to know this. I am already subject to edits. I am the scene of a break-in. Requiem is vigil. Matter is a word with multiples. I am struggling to rise. I am all my own breath. I am not code for another's sins. You will recall my joy. My joy is not a substitute. multiple times. I think this might be one such attempt.
I'm going to read a couple of poems from the closing section, A Charm to Change Sex. I guess this is the most personal attempt uh section of the collection um i'd love to be able to read to you the whole of seven proof texts on a transitioned body which i guess makes my experience being a body incredibly foregrounded and vulnerable i'm going to read the final section um
A reflection on being in hospital, drawing on my experience of, I suppose, what's sometimes called gender confirmation surgery and a particular incident that happened when I was in. Seven. So seven pretexts on a transition body. Seven pretexts. Awake at 4 a.m. and young again. Scars are raised, self-portrait as Jesus before the scourge.
Thesis, only the young and untroubled truly know the delight of God. A body yet to be settled, back in hospital for the final step. They're trying to kill me, oh God, they want me dead.
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Chapter 4: What personal experiences shape Yomi Ṣode's poetry?
An old lady's shout from across the bay. that other light, oh comfort ye, comfort ye my people, dare I speak my response. Sweet holy one, mother, listen, body, body drains away into plastic, transfiguration is fluid, yellow, red, brown, bags of liquid God, pierced one, he bears our smell and stain, He bore our sin. Holy Mother, let us be translated into constituent parts. Do not be afraid.
If world without end, then glory too. And if glory, then all our loves, all cries, longing for all things are held in you. Glory be to the venflon and to the saline and to the catheter. World without end. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Rachel Mann, thank you very much for being in this selection.
Rachel, it's powerful to have you reading this selection of poems from Eleanor Among the Saints. I'm struck by, throughout all of your work, there can often be a desire to give names, and some of that is theological, some of that is playful, some of that is about violence, some of that is about self-declaration. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the power of naming across your work.
Gosh, yeah, well, I mean, as you will know, Padraig, but others probably won't, in a poem in my first collection, A Kingdom of Love, there's a line that runs something like those without names are not, that to be deprived of a name is to be deprived of identity and those who end up in extermination camps. I guess...
I mean, chattel slavery is another example, deprived of names which tell stories and histories. And there's something for me, I guess, as a person of faith as well, to acknowledge that naming is an inflection point in sometimes in becoming that which is new. You know, the Bible is full of people receiving new names. But also it's a way of weaving yourself into story, that sort of genealogy.
But without names, we are lost. And as a trans person, as someone who has a discovered name, and I guess a dead name as well, I want to acknowledge that in my dead name, that I'm disavowing something and disavowing a relationship with with a family story as well, which I mean, you know, it's been beautifully healed in my own case, but isn't true for every trans person.
So yeah, sorry if I'm rambling, Padraig, tell me, but I think let us come back to the abiding power, potency and strangeness of name.
I wrote down as you were reading just that conjugated verb, I am, I am, I am, and then not code for another's sins. And then I think there is also the way of speaking about oneself as the I and having the opportunity to speak for oneself in conjugating a verb and letting your own language be present in art on the page.
What is it that drives you to poetry, to speak in the I, even as you adopt other personas through Eleanor and others?
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Chapter 5: How do Rachel and Yomi discuss the concept of grace in their work?
And I suppose the third one, when thinking about... Just thinking about the book in terms of how you can just take ownership of something in yourself when your own manners, your own mannerisms to a certain degree might change or not necessarily conforming to a type of behavior. I was really interested into what that looks like. So I'm going to share some work. Yeah.
So in light of the crisis talk, This poem about Hans is after two of his paintings, The Car Chops and The Gypsy Fortune Teller. And in both paintings, there was shifty things happening with Hans. And I was just like, oh, this is really interesting. But where does that take me? And yeah, just to read this now. About Hans, an uncle. After Caravaggio's The Gypsy Fortune Teller.
She turned his hand on his dorsal side and with a razor made three incisions between his knuckles, tender enough to split the flesh without touching veins. She coated his hands with pepper, filling the incisions in hands that dared not tremble, hands that knew little yet of suffering, hands she heard calling out to be sliced when his ears refused to listen.
The evening Uncle Banji stole money from his mother, he heard her chair rock back and forth, louder than usual. Before he entered, he felt the blooming of his paws as he tried to explain. And it was then that she turned his hands onto its back. Then that she placed it over an empty pot of fire, telling him, stay still. talking to him as the hot steam rose. Did I raise you to be a thief?
The next poem is Fugitives. there was the famous deal happened between Caravaggio and and and Renisho Tomasone over this girl that they really just like really really liked and you think this could be a conversation but the ego got the best of them they were like you know what we're gonna fight for her love um and this led to essentially one but one a loss of life
But also what was interesting about this situation was after this duel, after Renucio died, Caravaggio fled.
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Chapter 6: What role does historical research play in their poetry?
And one thing I was really trying to do in terms of arguments of the book was trying to draw parallels. I know I was talking with my editor at the time. And it just didn't make sense if there was nothing to argue against. Otherwise, I'm just speaking about a specific time. There had to be something that really pulls this to actually get a conversation going. And I found it. Fugitives.
Prior to Renucio Tomassoni's death, Caravaggio had been cautioned, reprimanded by police, then set free upon instruction. Countless slaps on the wrist until one afternoon he challenged non-pimp and rival Renucio to a duel over Felide Milindroni, whom they both loved. An illegal duel in the streets of Rome ensued, leaving Renucio bleeding through his femoral artery.
By the time Renucio Tomassoni's lifeless body was attended to, Caravaggio was nowhere to be found. He fled the Papal States because he could, blagging his way out of punishment and into the care of the Knights of Malta. Even when a man lay dead, a painting for the Grand Master granted Caravaggio a pardon from the Pope. My ancestors received little grace from the papacy.
When decrees were made against the enslavement of American natives, where was the mercy for the souls of Africa? Their decaying limbs settled on sea beds or were hung from trees, the branches bending to tell the tale, their skin was flogged for not listening, their bodies were sold on like cattle, where was the pardon for them? On a cold night in December, Jack Shepard felt a meal was not enough.
Having shared two bottles of wine, he took his date for a late night speedboat ride on the Thames. Slaps on the wrist. The police had warned Shepard on two separate occasions for speeding. By the time the pair were pulled from the water, the boat overturned by a log, the young woman was fighting for her life. Charlotte Brown died in hospital.
Caravaggio continued painting and brawling, lauded for his works for four more years, before at last his death caught up with him. He evaded justice at the hands of the law. And Jack Shepard? One week before the final trial, he ran for fear to Georgia, an animalistic fear that had him jumping on a plane with not much of a plan. Both men fled because they could.
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Chapter 7: How do both poets address grief and loss in their writing?
Crossed borders with ease because they could. Because white skin is white skin everywhere. Because privilege, irrespective of time, allows a grace period. Um... A slightly more fun part, there's this cheeky fourth part of what I was working with Caravaggio as well. And I'll say that's purely to be a troll.
And I say this because the idea of talking, if I was to just write about these situations and I feel there's a bunch of people who are more than aware of all the things that happen, but they turn a blind eye all the time. which is left for someone like me to deal with, or countless amounts of black and brown people to just deal with.
And it was just the idea that, oh, I can actually maybe title something along the lines of a Caravaggio painting, but then it has absolutely nothing to do with him. But it does have something to do with him. To some degree. And just to go into a sequence, this one particular is called Top Boy Summer House. Now, Top Boy, Netflix series, if you're old school like me, it's been on since like 2011.
Channel 4 before they cancelled season 2. I will never forgive them for that. Then it came back on Netflix. But there was something about that Channel 4 season that was really special. Season 2 followed this journey of Michael. And in my research, what I was doing in terms of ekphrases and ekphrastic work, when I looked at some of Caravaggio's paintings, there were three sets.
There was, in the sequence, a triptych. It was the calling of St. Matthew, the inspiration of St. Matthew, and the martyrdom of St. Matthew. And according to St. Matthew, it speaks in biblical verse where Jesus went, Matthew, and basically Jesus said to Matthew, follow me. And I know I was, I feel like I'm really trolling Jesus. I'm not meant to be last night.
I've kind of said these things, but really, if Jesus says, follow me, you're just going to be like, oh, dude, let's rock and roll. And then I had a moment. I was just like, where have I seen? And this is some of the work that I'm trying to do in this book is
Where have I seen someone of a high figure speak to someone who was looking up to that person and they're trying to aspire to be that person? And I'm like, gangs. I'm like, I see it in gangs. I see it in all these different things. You've got this kid that's looking up to this person who makes this amount of money, who wants to be this person.
And of course, they want to aspire to be this person. And of course, it had people in uproar a little bit. Are you trying to say that? Are you trying to say Jesus was the gang leader? What are you trying to do? What are you trying to do here? But... People followed him in the same way that you see people follow these many men, these people, right?
So I'm not trying to in no way disrespect, but I'm trying to show parallels in terms of the work a painting can do to bring me to a bigger conversation. So this is after those three paintings, and it's a sequence of the story of Michael. Top Boy, Summer House. The calling of Michael from the block. After Caravaggio's The Calling of St.
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Chapter 8: How do Rachel and Yomi perceive the impact of their public roles on their poetry?
Matthew. What more can be said to Michael as he digs in his pocket for change, only to pull out bobbles of cotton? Ashamed, he tucks the lint back in. He wants to silence the laughter, the growls of his stomach when darkness falls. He dreams of the light beaming through his charcoal curtains to touch the soles of his feet, of another light rising to meet his radiance as he stands.
Soon, Michael will glean a band for a week from Duchesne, whose stature eclipses the sun. Take it. Come on. His arms outstretched. Follow me. The inspiration of Michael from the block. Witness statement. Summer house resident. Every week I'd do my grocery shopping, and without fail I'd join the rest of them, the residents, in giving the young'uns some snacks.
Michael always took to strawberry lolly. Every week it was that, until DeShane and his lot got their paws on him. One by one, then I stopped joining in. No point. Little Michael wasn't so little anymore. Got himself a beard, out all hours, always awake before the sun, getting shouted at by that boy, DeShane. He bought my shopping once, Michael did. Turned up at my door.
Steps with bags full with shopping and I was speechless. I know his mum, you know. Yeah. I know she had her ups and downs and I know she couldn't afford it. So I asked, where's this money from, Mike? Michael, where is this money from? He refused to answer. Just said, come on, take it. I said, no. And I'll never forget that look he gave me. It's like, it's like he forgot who I was.
That bought him snacks just in case he hadn't eaten. It was only a matter of time before that lot took my Michael under his wing. The same way they do with the rest. The martyrdom of Michael. From the block. After Caravaggio's The Martyrdom of St. Matthew. Michael is thrown down. Michael calls down to the man he made his God as he's thrown from the 10th floor balcony to an untimely death.
A dented car roof becomes a crucifix re-imagined. His legs are crossed, his arms are open in a final act of praise. His God bears witness to the sacrifice and runs to safety. Should have been him is whispered within tired walls. Many more will fall into Shane's name before that day. Tonight, when Michael's mother gets the door, it will not be because her son has forgotten his keys.
I think I'm going to stop there. Yeah, I'm going to stop there. Thank you.
APPLAUSE
The word grace occurs both in your poetry as well as in your commentary on the poetry. You know, grace as forgiveness, grace as pardon from the Pope, then the line, where was the pardon for them? Grace, period. I wonder if you could talk to us about the insistence that you have of troubling a word that's often just used in a very benevolent way and an easy way.
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